1 00:00:03,200 --> 00:00:02,450 and it hits me oh my gosh this is that 2 00:00:04,309 --> 00:00:03,210 triangle 3 00:00:05,420 --> 00:00:04,319 you know there's explanation for 4 00:00:07,039 --> 00:00:05,430 everything that occurred in the 5 00:00:09,740 --> 00:00:07,049 Rendlesham forest incident didn't 6 00:00:13,249 --> 00:00:09,750 involve aliens at all it was completely 7 00:00:16,490 --> 00:00:13,259 silent it comes right over our head it's 8 00:00:18,080 --> 00:00:16,500 so classic flying-saucer really standing 9 00:00:19,640 --> 00:00:18,090 in the clearing he turned over to my 10 00:00:24,730 --> 00:00:19,650 father and held his hand and he looked 11 00:00:30,890 --> 00:00:28,160 welcome to podcast UFO for our live show 12 00:00:33,770 --> 00:00:30,900 we're live every Wednesday at 8 p.m. 13 00:00:36,229 --> 00:00:33,780 Eastern Standard Time on podcast UFO 14 00:00:38,299 --> 00:00:36,239 calm during the show feel free to 15 00:00:40,760 --> 00:00:38,309 participate live in our chat room and 16 00:00:43,880 --> 00:00:40,770 don't forget to Like us on our very 17 00:00:45,799 --> 00:00:43,890 active Facebook page hello and welcome 18 00:00:47,900 --> 00:00:45,809 to the show I'm Martin will assure host 19 00:00:50,090 --> 00:00:47,910 and you know we didn't have a show last 20 00:00:52,340 --> 00:00:50,100 week as a matter of fact the state of 21 00:00:55,939 --> 00:00:52,350 Maine where I live we had the biggest 22 00:01:00,080 --> 00:00:55,949 power outage on record four hundred 23 00:01:03,290 --> 00:01:00,090 thousand residents without power and so 24 00:01:06,560 --> 00:01:03,300 I lost it for an entire week which makes 25 00:01:08,660 --> 00:01:06,570 me feel really bad for the people for 26 00:01:12,440 --> 00:01:08,670 instance in Puerto Rico how tough it 27 00:01:15,469 --> 00:01:12,450 must be even after just one week I was 28 00:01:18,140 --> 00:01:15,479 very very lucky it wasn't cold here but 29 00:01:20,149 --> 00:01:18,150 after one week without power you start 30 00:01:22,160 --> 00:01:20,159 to you know you start to realize what 31 00:01:25,010 --> 00:01:22,170 type of trouble these people must be in 32 00:01:28,730 --> 00:01:25,020 as far as refrigerator goes as far as 33 00:01:31,280 --> 00:01:28,740 water goes you know heat luckily like I 34 00:01:33,770 --> 00:01:31,290 said it wasn't an issue but anyway I 35 00:01:36,859 --> 00:01:33,780 really do appreciate electricity a lot 36 00:01:39,230 --> 00:01:36,869 I'm even gonna pay my bill on time from 37 00:01:42,230 --> 00:01:39,240 now on I'm really glad to have 38 00:01:44,030 --> 00:01:42,240 electricity I have a well actually 39 00:01:45,920 --> 00:01:44,040 Alejandro is not going to be with us 40 00:01:49,639 --> 00:01:45,930 he's actually in the air right now he's 41 00:01:50,960 --> 00:01:49,649 flying to Florida for something so he's 42 00:01:54,200 --> 00:01:50,970 not going to be part of the show tonight 43 00:01:56,510 --> 00:01:54,210 I have Kevin Randle on I'm excited about 44 00:01:59,330 --> 00:01:56,520 we're gonna be talking about the Sakura 45 00:02:02,780 --> 00:01:59,340 incident which I do say is in one of my 46 00:02:04,580 --> 00:02:02,790 top five UFO cases that I like and think 47 00:02:06,020 --> 00:02:04,590 it's authentic and really an amazing 48 00:02:09,350 --> 00:02:06,030 case we're gonna be talking all about 49 00:02:12,510 --> 00:02:09,360 that I have an email here I'd like to 50 00:02:14,640 --> 00:02:12,520 read I get a lot of email and 51 00:02:17,970 --> 00:02:14,650 I just thought I thought I'd probably 52 00:02:20,730 --> 00:02:17,980 would read this one hi I've been 53 00:02:22,890 --> 00:02:20,740 listening to your UFO podcast for a long 54 00:02:26,850 --> 00:02:22,900 time now and they are getting very 55 00:02:30,000 --> 00:02:26,860 boring can you get more alien abductee 56 00:02:33,210 --> 00:02:30,010 guests how about having Tom DeLonge on 57 00:02:36,420 --> 00:02:33,220 your show the old people you interview 58 00:02:38,910 --> 00:02:36,430 are just boring as hell to listen to so 59 00:02:42,300 --> 00:02:38,920 anyway thank you Michael for that I will 60 00:02:46,670 --> 00:02:42,310 take that into account I'm not I'm not 61 00:02:49,320 --> 00:02:46,680 really young chicken myself but anyway 62 00:02:52,560 --> 00:02:49,330 we to get young people there's not a lot 63 00:02:56,460 --> 00:02:52,570 of young people involved you know last I 64 00:03:00,590 --> 00:02:56,470 would say young person we had was Jordan 65 00:03:03,180 --> 00:03:00,600 Bonaparte he was on also Ryan Sprague 66 00:03:07,320 --> 00:03:03,190 but you're we know we need more young 67 00:03:09,450 --> 00:03:07,330 people that are really taking this topic 68 00:03:13,560 --> 00:03:09,460 seriously and I hope I hope more come 69 00:03:15,570 --> 00:03:13,570 along and I would really like to 70 00:03:17,699 --> 00:03:15,580 interview younger people so to speak as 71 00:03:19,830 --> 00:03:17,709 well but everybody's welcome 72 00:03:23,040 --> 00:03:19,840 I love the season people like our guest 73 00:03:24,390 --> 00:03:23,050 tonight and always glad to have you on 74 00:03:28,290 --> 00:03:24,400 the show repeat guest 75 00:03:29,610 --> 00:03:28,300 Kevin Randle how are you I'm fine but 76 00:03:32,670 --> 00:03:29,620 since Michael doesn't want to hear 77 00:03:33,810 --> 00:03:32,680 boring old people I'm hanging up now now 78 00:03:36,150 --> 00:03:33,820 what am I going to do the rest of the 79 00:03:39,150 --> 00:03:36,160 show now you can talk about abductions 80 00:03:42,420 --> 00:03:39,160 okay hey well you know I don't consider 81 00:03:44,640 --> 00:03:42,430 you know I I can't say that I consider 82 00:03:46,350 --> 00:03:44,650 you know the guests that I've had boring 83 00:03:48,449 --> 00:03:46,360 but you know it's everybody's opinion 84 00:03:50,699 --> 00:03:48,459 everyone has the right to their opinion 85 00:03:53,810 --> 00:03:50,709 everyone has the right to my opinion and 86 00:03:58,140 --> 00:03:53,820 that's why they listen to this show so 87 00:04:00,690 --> 00:03:58,150 Kevin you have found it necessary to do 88 00:04:02,580 --> 00:04:00,700 your great research on socorro 89 00:04:06,240 --> 00:04:02,590 and how did all that come about to begin 90 00:04:08,220 --> 00:04:06,250 with I was actually doing my radio show 91 00:04:10,470 --> 00:04:08,230 on the exo and broadcast network and I 92 00:04:13,199 --> 00:04:10,480 interviewed Ben moss and Tony Angie Ola 93 00:04:14,960 --> 00:04:13,209 who are two young people by the way or 94 00:04:17,970 --> 00:04:14,970 younger people I should say yeah and 95 00:04:19,289 --> 00:04:17,980 during the conversation with them I 96 00:04:21,599 --> 00:04:19,299 contest I don't know what I was coming 97 00:04:23,670 --> 00:04:21,609 up with the conversation with them I had 98 00:04:25,950 --> 00:04:23,680 at them about some of the things going 99 00:04:28,320 --> 00:04:25,960 on and they said that the Lonnie Zamora 100 00:04:29,969 --> 00:04:28,330 was not the only person who have seen 101 00:04:31,409 --> 00:04:29,979 the crime there were at least three 102 00:04:34,409 --> 00:04:31,419 people who'd called the police station 103 00:04:38,189 --> 00:04:34,419 about it before Lonnie Zamora saw the 104 00:04:39,930 --> 00:04:38,199 craft land in near near Socorro and saw 105 00:04:40,760 --> 00:04:39,940 the two alien creatures and that sort of 106 00:04:42,930 --> 00:04:40,770 thing 107 00:04:44,879 --> 00:04:42,940 so I asked him did you look at the 108 00:04:46,050 --> 00:04:44,889 police record and I asked him that 109 00:04:49,309 --> 00:04:46,060 question two or three times and I never 110 00:04:51,809 --> 00:04:49,319 got a satisfactory answer also in the 111 00:04:53,670 --> 00:04:51,819 conversation I had with them they asked 112 00:04:55,499 --> 00:04:53,680 about or they've talked about having the 113 00:04:58,860 --> 00:04:55,509 real project Bluebook file as opposed to 114 00:05:00,450 --> 00:04:58,870 the one that we all have from the 115 00:05:02,400 --> 00:05:00,460 microfilm and the information that was 116 00:05:04,950 --> 00:05:02,410 given to the National Archives on 117 00:05:07,379 --> 00:05:04,960 Project Blue Book closed and I wanted to 118 00:05:09,540 --> 00:05:07,389 know more about that and that kind of 119 00:05:11,219 --> 00:05:09,550 sparked the interest in it one of the 120 00:05:13,800 --> 00:05:11,229 first things I found just to tie 121 00:05:15,900 --> 00:05:13,810 everything together was that there was 122 00:05:18,149 --> 00:05:15,910 no police report on the three witnesses 123 00:05:20,700 --> 00:05:18,159 who called in and having seen the the 124 00:05:24,330 --> 00:05:20,710 flame or the object in the sky but 125 00:05:25,830 --> 00:05:24,340 Captain Richard holder who was a Army 126 00:05:30,600 --> 00:05:25,840 officer and lived in Socorro at the time 127 00:05:32,100 --> 00:05:30,610 he was on scene within an hour of Zamora 128 00:05:34,529 --> 00:05:32,110 returning to the police station and 129 00:05:36,330 --> 00:05:34,539 during that time he interviewed Zamora 130 00:05:38,159 --> 00:05:36,340 but he wrote a report that very night 131 00:05:40,080 --> 00:05:38,169 and it went to the Pentagon went to the 132 00:05:41,610 --> 00:05:40,090 Pentagon the Pentagon I'm thinking white 133 00:05:43,589 --> 00:05:41,620 wright-patterson but I went to the 134 00:05:44,879 --> 00:05:43,599 Pentagon first and in that report he 135 00:05:46,499 --> 00:05:44,889 talked about the three people who had 136 00:05:47,850 --> 00:05:46,509 called into the police station and had 137 00:05:50,939 --> 00:05:47,860 seen the object in the sky 138 00:05:52,560 --> 00:05:50,949 so that sparked my interest in this 139 00:05:54,839 --> 00:05:52,570 thing because now it's not single 140 00:05:56,850 --> 00:05:54,849 witness we actually have additional 141 00:05:59,040 --> 00:05:56,860 witnesses and as I did other research I 142 00:05:59,909 --> 00:05:59,050 found other witnesses in the area that 143 00:06:00,779 --> 00:05:59,919 made the whole thing much more 144 00:06:03,749 --> 00:06:00,789 interesting 145 00:06:07,830 --> 00:06:03,759 Wow great so one of the mistakes I make 146 00:06:09,240 --> 00:06:07,840 often in this show is I kind of assumed 147 00:06:11,610 --> 00:06:09,250 that a lot of people know about these 148 00:06:13,740 --> 00:06:11,620 cases so and I know it might be boring 149 00:06:16,709 --> 00:06:13,750 for the person again that word comes up 150 00:06:19,350 --> 00:06:16,719 for the person that does know this case 151 00:06:21,870 --> 00:06:19,360 very well but I'd like to go over of the 152 00:06:24,060 --> 00:06:21,880 entire incident for the person just 153 00:06:26,040 --> 00:06:24,070 coming in the young person coming in and 154 00:06:29,459 --> 00:06:26,050 listening that wants to know more about 155 00:06:32,189 --> 00:06:29,469 UFOs so this was back in 1964 can you 156 00:06:36,919 --> 00:06:32,199 can you go over how everything unfolded 157 00:06:41,789 --> 00:06:40,169 no the story begins with Lenny's armoire 158 00:06:43,499 --> 00:06:41,799 chasing a speeder through downtown 159 00:06:47,369 --> 00:06:43,509 Socorro New Mexico and as he's doing 160 00:06:49,319 --> 00:06:47,379 this he hears this roaring succeed ina 161 00:06:51,629 --> 00:06:49,329 might shack on the edge of town had 162 00:06:54,299 --> 00:06:51,639 blown up so he breaks off the pursuit 163 00:06:56,549 --> 00:06:54,309 and he goes rushing toward the dynamite 164 00:07:01,379 --> 00:06:56,559 Shack and here's the roar sees this 165 00:07:03,869 --> 00:07:01,389 thing in the sky sees it land and comes 166 00:07:06,329 --> 00:07:03,879 up over a ridge sees the object down in 167 00:07:08,069 --> 00:07:06,339 an arroyo thinks it's an overturned car 168 00:07:10,979 --> 00:07:08,079 and eventually he gets down close enough 169 00:07:12,449 --> 00:07:10,989 and he sees two beings outside the craft 170 00:07:14,549 --> 00:07:12,459 he thinks they're children there's the 171 00:07:17,969 --> 00:07:14,559 size of ten twelve year old children and 172 00:07:19,859 --> 00:07:17,979 as he's approaching they hear him they 173 00:07:22,109 --> 00:07:19,869 look startled or they that seem to react 174 00:07:25,289 --> 00:07:22,119 to him they run back he hears a sound 175 00:07:26,729 --> 00:07:25,299 like the hatch of the craft closing and 176 00:07:28,739 --> 00:07:26,739 suddenly there's a roar and that thing 177 00:07:31,949 --> 00:07:28,749 takes off and disappears the sighting 178 00:07:33,029 --> 00:07:31,959 takes two and a half minutes maybe two 179 00:07:33,539 --> 00:07:33,039 minutes two and a half minutes three 180 00:07:36,899 --> 00:07:33,549 minutes 181 00:07:38,939 --> 00:07:36,909 he is just stunned by what he's seen he 182 00:07:41,069 --> 00:07:38,949 calls the police station on his police 183 00:07:44,999 --> 00:07:41,079 radio and asked his friend sergeant 184 00:07:45,689 --> 00:07:45,009 Chavez Sam Chavez to come out to talk to 185 00:07:47,909 --> 00:07:45,699 him about it 186 00:07:50,189 --> 00:07:47,919 Chavez arrives within a couple of 187 00:07:51,959 --> 00:07:50,199 minutes and there's some discussion 188 00:07:55,589 --> 00:07:51,969 whether the thing was still visible in 189 00:07:58,019 --> 00:07:55,599 the sky when Chavez arose a Rove arrived 190 00:08:02,159 --> 00:07:58,029 and there is some discussion about 191 00:08:04,199 --> 00:08:02,169 whether or not he sought cheves said no 192 00:08:06,179 --> 00:08:04,209 he didn't see anything but he noticed 193 00:08:08,669 --> 00:08:06,189 that that Lonnie some more of the police 194 00:08:12,119 --> 00:08:08,679 officer looked absolutely stunned 195 00:08:14,039 --> 00:08:12,129 shocked by what he what he'd seen and it 196 00:08:16,319 --> 00:08:14,049 all kinds of grows that grows out of 197 00:08:17,519 --> 00:08:16,329 there they've talked to other the 198 00:08:20,100 --> 00:08:17,529 information goes out over the police 199 00:08:22,350 --> 00:08:20,110 radio I should say others show up at the 200 00:08:25,309 --> 00:08:22,360 scene they see landing gear impressions 201 00:08:28,289 --> 00:08:25,319 on the ground they see a smoking bush 202 00:08:30,359 --> 00:08:28,299 that doesn't seem it seems to be cold on 203 00:08:31,799 --> 00:08:30,369 one side and and and smoking on the 204 00:08:34,740 --> 00:08:31,809 other but it's not hot really hot to the 205 00:08:37,409 --> 00:08:34,750 touch they see other evidences of this 206 00:08:40,579 --> 00:08:37,419 thing having landed photographs are 207 00:08:43,499 --> 00:08:40,589 taken on the site that time about dusk 208 00:08:46,439 --> 00:08:43,509 dark they head back to the police 209 00:08:48,600 --> 00:08:46,449 station and in the interim and and it's 210 00:08:49,980 --> 00:08:48,610 again unclear is exactly the sequence of 211 00:08:52,440 --> 00:08:49,990 events but 212 00:08:55,050 --> 00:08:52,450 captain Richard holder who was the I 213 00:08:56,639 --> 00:08:55,060 think it's a stallion station commander 214 00:08:58,170 --> 00:08:56,649 at the White Sands Missile Range and 215 00:09:00,750 --> 00:08:58,180 that station happened to be closer to 216 00:09:04,260 --> 00:09:00,760 Socorro than it is to Alamogordo so 217 00:09:05,850 --> 00:09:04,270 holder lived in Socorro and an FBI agent 218 00:09:09,510 --> 00:09:05,860 named Arthur burns are called 219 00:09:11,430 --> 00:09:09,520 and it's not sure whether burns called 220 00:09:12,930 --> 00:09:11,440 holder or holder heard about it some 221 00:09:14,310 --> 00:09:12,940 other way but they all they both arrived 222 00:09:16,740 --> 00:09:14,320 within minutes of one another 223 00:09:18,870 --> 00:09:16,750 sometime around 7:20 in the evening 224 00:09:20,820 --> 00:09:18,880 Zamora comes back and then they go into 225 00:09:27,329 --> 00:09:20,830 the investigation holder eventually 226 00:09:29,160 --> 00:09:27,339 calls out to his out out to White Sands 227 00:09:32,040 --> 00:09:29,170 and gets MPs on the site and they kind 228 00:09:33,480 --> 00:09:32,050 of cordon it off and so that they can 229 00:09:34,949 --> 00:09:33,490 look at the stuff for the next morning 230 00:09:36,660 --> 00:09:34,959 so you've got a sighting that takes 231 00:09:38,370 --> 00:09:36,670 place just a couple of minutes but 232 00:09:41,460 --> 00:09:38,380 what's important about it is you have a 233 00:09:43,079 --> 00:09:41,470 police officer involved you have crook 234 00:09:45,780 --> 00:09:43,089 Robert of witnesses calling into the 235 00:09:49,170 --> 00:09:45,790 police station you have landing traces 236 00:09:50,880 --> 00:09:49,180 on the ground and you have the sighting 237 00:09:53,370 --> 00:09:50,890 of alien creatures beings from another 238 00:09:55,410 --> 00:09:53,380 world so it's all really good sighting 239 00:09:57,150 --> 00:09:55,420 of that people have dismissed it for a 240 00:09:58,560 --> 00:09:57,160 longest time and saying well you know it 241 00:09:59,970 --> 00:09:58,570 would be more interesting but it's 242 00:10:02,220 --> 00:09:59,980 single witness it turns out it's not 243 00:10:04,740 --> 00:10:02,230 single witness and so as my 244 00:10:08,250 --> 00:10:04,750 investigation unfolded I would say 245 00:10:10,920 --> 00:10:08,260 unravel unfolded I learned more about 246 00:10:13,199 --> 00:10:10,930 about this case I learned about the the 247 00:10:15,000 --> 00:10:13,209 other file that Ben moss and Tony Angela 248 00:10:16,740 --> 00:10:15,010 we're talking about and they'd gotten 249 00:10:19,319 --> 00:10:16,750 all the information from Rob Mercer 250 00:10:22,350 --> 00:10:19,329 which is a really interesting story in 251 00:10:24,300 --> 00:10:22,360 and of itself right yeah and and and Rob 252 00:10:26,160 --> 00:10:24,310 Mercer said that what he would do is 253 00:10:27,870 --> 00:10:26,170 periodically he'd look at Craigslist 254 00:10:30,420 --> 00:10:27,880 because UFO material showed up on 255 00:10:32,760 --> 00:10:30,430 Craigslist who would have thunk mm-hmm 256 00:10:34,889 --> 00:10:32,770 and somebody was advertising this block 257 00:10:37,920 --> 00:10:34,899 box of Project Blue Book files on 258 00:10:39,600 --> 00:10:37,930 craigslist mercer called him found out 259 00:10:43,530 --> 00:10:39,610 it hadn't been sold offered the money 260 00:10:44,550 --> 00:10:43,540 and picked up the box and it had Project 261 00:10:46,980 --> 00:10:44,560 Blue Book files and one of the files 262 00:10:49,260 --> 00:10:46,990 ahead and there happened to be the the 263 00:10:51,470 --> 00:10:49,270 Socorro file a copy of the Socorro file 264 00:10:54,660 --> 00:10:51,480 or an information from the Socorro file 265 00:10:57,120 --> 00:10:54,670 Mercer then found out where the guy 266 00:10:59,579 --> 00:10:57,130 bought the box learned who to own the 267 00:11:03,360 --> 00:10:59,589 house prior to the the current residence 268 00:11:06,360 --> 00:11:03,370 and was able to trace trace the guy car 269 00:11:07,890 --> 00:11:06,370 Morano who had been one of the officers 270 00:11:10,920 --> 00:11:07,900 that helped closeout prodigy Blue Book 271 00:11:12,180 --> 00:11:10,930 back in in 1969 if you see the picture 272 00:11:14,610 --> 00:11:12,190 in the picture that's probably stevia 273 00:11:18,510 --> 00:11:14,620 where of Hector Quintanilla's sitting at 274 00:11:20,460 --> 00:11:18,520 the desk and the map of the solar system 275 00:11:21,420 --> 00:11:20,470 behind him and the secretary and an NCO 276 00:11:24,390 --> 00:11:21,430 standing there and there's another 277 00:11:26,460 --> 00:11:24,400 officer Carmen Morano is the sauce 278 00:11:29,310 --> 00:11:26,470 officer standing there and I'm just 279 00:11:32,640 --> 00:11:29,320 absolutely flabbergasted that Rob Mercer 280 00:11:34,440 --> 00:11:32,650 could find him but he was able to get 281 00:11:35,790 --> 00:11:34,450 enough information from the owner of the 282 00:11:37,710 --> 00:11:35,800 house and be able to trace it through 283 00:11:40,050 --> 00:11:37,720 records and found Mercer and talked 284 00:11:41,790 --> 00:11:40,060 about Mercer found a Morano and talked 285 00:11:43,500 --> 00:11:41,800 to him and and I was able to talk to 286 00:11:45,840 --> 00:11:43,510 Morano as well and gather some of the 287 00:11:49,800 --> 00:11:45,850 information so it all came about it all 288 00:11:52,290 --> 00:11:49,810 came about simply because I had invited 289 00:11:53,519 --> 00:11:52,300 Ben moss and Antonio Angelo on my radio 290 00:11:56,130 --> 00:11:53,529 program and they said a couple of things 291 00:11:57,390 --> 00:11:56,140 that sparked my interest and I felt I 292 00:11:58,829 --> 00:11:57,400 haven't gotten a good answer for it 293 00:12:01,800 --> 00:11:58,839 turns out that the answers were there 294 00:12:04,350 --> 00:12:01,810 but but in the discussion that took 295 00:12:05,610 --> 00:12:04,360 place somehow we didn't get the 296 00:12:09,240 --> 00:12:05,620 questions answered that I wanted 297 00:12:11,160 --> 00:12:09,250 answered right and so what about the 298 00:12:14,490 --> 00:12:11,170 other witnesses now there was the 299 00:12:16,800 --> 00:12:14,500 mysterious Colorado tourist possible 300 00:12:18,990 --> 00:12:16,810 that stopped at a gas station this has 301 00:12:20,400 --> 00:12:19,000 nothing to do with them though well 302 00:12:22,680 --> 00:12:20,410 these are three people who lived in 303 00:12:23,820 --> 00:12:22,690 Socorro okay and and they called the 304 00:12:26,430 --> 00:12:23,830 police and said that they had either 305 00:12:28,140 --> 00:12:26,440 seen a flame in the sky and in letting 306 00:12:29,610 --> 00:12:28,150 Zamora kind of talked about that too not 307 00:12:32,550 --> 00:12:29,620 really seeing an object at first but a 308 00:12:35,160 --> 00:12:32,560 flame a blue flame tinged with orange in 309 00:12:37,110 --> 00:12:35,170 the sky and they talked about that or an 310 00:12:40,650 --> 00:12:37,120 object in the sky coming over over the 311 00:12:43,710 --> 00:12:40,660 town and it happened prior to money's 312 00:12:45,960 --> 00:12:43,720 amour going out on the scene because the 313 00:12:48,090 --> 00:12:45,970 police officer the radio dispatcher 314 00:12:49,769 --> 00:12:48,100 didn't bother taking their names which 315 00:12:53,820 --> 00:12:49,779 is a horrendous piece of police work 316 00:12:55,590 --> 00:12:53,830 there and then there is but talk to Park 317 00:12:59,280 --> 00:12:55,600 talked to Holder talked to the FBI guy 318 00:13:01,019 --> 00:12:59,290 burns and I believe talked to the Lorenz 319 00:13:03,150 --> 00:13:01,029 ins Carlin Jim Lorenzen who were the 320 00:13:05,850 --> 00:13:03,160 head of the area of phenomenal research 321 00:13:07,350 --> 00:13:05,860 organization back in 1964 who got there 322 00:13:10,620 --> 00:13:07,360 within 48 hours to interview the 323 00:13:12,210 --> 00:13:10,630 principal's as well but nobody ever went 324 00:13:14,699 --> 00:13:12,220 to find these people I'm thinking good 325 00:13:16,800 --> 00:13:14,709 lord you've got additional witnesses you 326 00:13:21,600 --> 00:13:16,810 know the path the object found they did 327 00:13:23,610 --> 00:13:21,610 the flew over town you-you-you could 328 00:13:25,560 --> 00:13:23,620 have gone into the area knocked on doors 329 00:13:28,680 --> 00:13:25,570 until you found some of those witnesses 330 00:13:29,940 --> 00:13:28,690 because Socorro wasn't that big in 1964 331 00:13:31,860 --> 00:13:29,950 and you've got the path for crying out 332 00:13:34,740 --> 00:13:31,870 loud and you know people saw or heard 333 00:13:36,300 --> 00:13:34,750 stuff you needed to go find those but 334 00:13:39,000 --> 00:13:36,310 but the lorenz didn't do it which 335 00:13:40,410 --> 00:13:39,010 surprised the hell out of me the Air 336 00:13:42,060 --> 00:13:40,420 Force didn't do it which did not 337 00:13:45,360 --> 00:13:42,070 surprise the hell out of me 338 00:13:47,730 --> 00:13:45,370 a Hynek didn't do it which didn't 339 00:13:50,940 --> 00:13:47,740 surprise me that the FBI guy and a 340 00:13:53,310 --> 00:13:50,950 holder didn't do it maybe a result of 341 00:13:57,030 --> 00:13:53,320 them just being the first governmental 342 00:14:00,180 --> 00:13:57,040 officials on scene but their importance 343 00:14:02,370 --> 00:14:00,190 we suit you sir when when David Moody 344 00:14:05,040 --> 00:14:02,380 who was the air force guy and high-neck 345 00:14:06,420 --> 00:14:05,050 arrived but nobody bothered to go find 346 00:14:07,950 --> 00:14:06,430 these witnesses after Lonnie Zamora 347 00:14:09,390 --> 00:14:07,960 sighting you would think my god we've 348 00:14:11,310 --> 00:14:09,400 got additional witness let's go find 349 00:14:14,340 --> 00:14:11,320 them what they never did that 350 00:14:16,590 --> 00:14:14,350 I wonder how public that was known for 351 00:14:18,870 --> 00:14:16,600 instance you know race Stanford of 352 00:14:20,100 --> 00:14:18,880 course he's been on your show he's been 353 00:14:22,110 --> 00:14:20,110 on my show a number of times he's 354 00:14:25,020 --> 00:14:22,120 listening right now I'm positive of it 355 00:14:27,780 --> 00:14:25,030 did a wonderful book Socorro saucer in a 356 00:14:29,660 --> 00:14:27,790 Pentagon pantry I read that book I 357 00:14:32,670 --> 00:14:29,670 thought it was very very well done and 358 00:14:34,470 --> 00:14:32,680 now I know that you reference Ray a 359 00:14:35,730 --> 00:14:34,480 little bit in it I started to read the 360 00:14:39,000 --> 00:14:35,740 first part of your book I've just been 361 00:14:40,800 --> 00:14:39,010 so busy but a question I have for you 362 00:14:45,600 --> 00:14:40,810 when it comes to these other witnesses 363 00:14:46,980 --> 00:14:45,610 is you would think that they would trace 364 00:14:49,230 --> 00:14:46,990 you know it would have taken the name 365 00:14:50,940 --> 00:14:49,240 and what about you know how many people 366 00:14:53,940 --> 00:14:50,950 the percentage that is of how many 367 00:14:55,770 --> 00:14:53,950 people actually report a UFO there must 368 00:14:58,950 --> 00:14:55,780 have been more people in the same area 369 00:15:01,590 --> 00:14:58,960 that these people were in that probably 370 00:15:03,510 --> 00:15:01,600 ever came forward but my point exactly 371 00:15:05,340 --> 00:15:03,520 never called the please never worried 372 00:15:07,350 --> 00:15:05,350 about that and so I'm thinking if you 373 00:15:08,880 --> 00:15:07,360 you've got the path the craft flew and 374 00:15:11,160 --> 00:15:08,890 you've known people on the ground saw it 375 00:15:13,830 --> 00:15:11,170 and heard it you go out and knock on 376 00:15:15,480 --> 00:15:13,840 some doors along that pathway and see if 377 00:15:17,730 --> 00:15:15,490 you could find someone who had seen it 378 00:15:19,170 --> 00:15:17,740 or had had heard the thing fly over that 379 00:15:20,700 --> 00:15:19,180 would have been a wonderful piece of 380 00:15:23,700 --> 00:15:20,710 detective work but nobody seemed too 381 00:15:25,920 --> 00:15:23,710 bothered to do it there was a tourist 382 00:15:28,020 --> 00:15:25,930 car as you mentioned earlier from 383 00:15:28,809 --> 00:15:28,030 apparently from Colorado and I lived in 384 00:15:32,549 --> 00:15:28,819 Colorado 385 00:15:34,599 --> 00:15:32,559 place but it wasn't me are you sure 386 00:15:36,669 --> 00:15:34,609 absolutely because they were right 387 00:15:39,969 --> 00:15:36,679 riding in a green Cadillac and we did 388 00:15:41,669 --> 00:15:39,979 not have that kind of money but they 389 00:15:44,349 --> 00:15:41,679 stopped they stopped at a gas station 390 00:15:46,449 --> 00:15:44,359 either managed or owned by opal grinder 391 00:15:48,609 --> 00:15:46,459 I think was managed by him it was a 392 00:15:51,969 --> 00:15:48,619 whiting brothers gas station there on 393 00:15:53,679 --> 00:15:51,979 highway 85 and the driver said something 394 00:15:56,650 --> 00:15:53,689 about them flying their aircraft awfully 395 00:15:58,239 --> 00:15:56,660 low and and grinder said something about 396 00:16:03,789 --> 00:15:58,249 helicopters he said was not a helicopter 397 00:16:05,289 --> 00:16:03,799 and apparently there was a man and a 398 00:16:09,939 --> 00:16:05,299 woman in the car there are three 399 00:16:12,039 --> 00:16:09,949 children and talked about this a little 400 00:16:14,079 --> 00:16:12,049 bit to open grinder and grinders I think 401 00:16:16,809 --> 00:16:14,089 son who was working at the station 402 00:16:19,449 --> 00:16:16,819 overheard that and once they filled the 403 00:16:21,189 --> 00:16:19,459 tank the couple talked took off they 404 00:16:24,249 --> 00:16:21,199 thought they were from Colorado the 405 00:16:27,249 --> 00:16:24,259 thing that bothers me about this is you 406 00:16:29,169 --> 00:16:27,259 get to their Zamora sighting and that 407 00:16:30,999 --> 00:16:29,179 was national news I mean you pick up any 408 00:16:34,329 --> 00:16:31,009 newspaper around the country for April 409 00:16:36,309 --> 00:16:34,339 25th 1964 you're gonna find a mention of 410 00:16:38,319 --> 00:16:36,319 this Walter Cronkite talked about it on 411 00:16:40,599 --> 00:16:38,329 the CBS Evening News for cryin in a 412 00:16:43,799 --> 00:16:40,609 bucket so it was well known around the 413 00:16:51,599 --> 00:16:43,809 country those people never came forward 414 00:16:57,969 --> 00:16:54,999 within days of the sighting I mean it it 415 00:16:59,529 --> 00:16:57,979 it hi Nick was there on the Tuesday got 416 00:17:00,999 --> 00:16:59,539 there Tuesday evening the sighting was 417 00:17:03,669 --> 00:17:01,009 on a Friday night he got there Tuesday 418 00:17:05,559 --> 00:17:03,679 evening and was there on Wednesday he 419 00:17:09,990 --> 00:17:05,569 was squired around by a fellow named 420 00:17:12,369 --> 00:17:10,000 Connor from Kirtland Air Force Base a 421 00:17:15,579 --> 00:17:12,379 major there who supposedly was in public 422 00:17:18,189 --> 00:17:15,589 relations that drove Hynek around you've 423 00:17:21,909 --> 00:17:18,199 got the Lorenzen showing up on Sunday I 424 00:17:24,669 --> 00:17:21,919 think ray got there on Tuesday ray is in 425 00:17:26,679 --> 00:17:24,679 fact the only guy left alive who was 426 00:17:28,269 --> 00:17:26,689 that we think it's the only guy left 427 00:17:31,720 --> 00:17:28,279 alive who was actually physically on the 428 00:17:33,369 --> 00:17:31,730 scene I think David moody has has died 429 00:17:35,710 --> 00:17:33,379 but I don't know that for sure I haven't 430 00:17:38,200 --> 00:17:35,720 been able to find him and he was the Air 431 00:17:39,669 --> 00:17:38,210 Force NCO who was on scene and you see 432 00:17:41,590 --> 00:17:39,679 some of the pictures in the newspapers 433 00:17:42,090 --> 00:17:41,600 the Air Force sergeant standing in there 434 00:17:46,799 --> 00:17:42,100 that's 435 00:17:49,260 --> 00:17:46,809 David Mooney moody so but but Ray would 436 00:17:51,240 --> 00:17:49,270 be the probably the only guy who still 437 00:17:54,160 --> 00:17:51,250 alive who was physically on the scene 438 00:17:55,700 --> 00:17:54,170 and can talk about it the Lorenz ins 439 00:17:59,400 --> 00:17:55,710 [Applause] 440 00:18:03,360 --> 00:17:59,410 never found never found the the the 441 00:18:05,190 --> 00:18:03,370 drivers driver of the car the tourists 442 00:18:07,320 --> 00:18:05,200 who drove through there were two guys 443 00:18:08,940 --> 00:18:07,330 from Dubuque Iowa who claimed that they 444 00:18:10,409 --> 00:18:08,950 were driving through town at the time 445 00:18:12,870 --> 00:18:10,419 this thing took off and their story 446 00:18:14,760 --> 00:18:12,880 appears in the Dubuque 447 00:18:17,909 --> 00:18:14,770 I think it's Herald Telegraph of 448 00:18:19,470 --> 00:18:17,919 Telegraph Herald on the Wednesday I 449 00:18:21,750 --> 00:18:19,480 think it's Wednesday after after this 450 00:18:23,880 --> 00:18:21,760 all took place 451 00:18:25,320 --> 00:18:23,890 I don't believe their tale I think they 452 00:18:27,000 --> 00:18:25,330 made it up I think they heard the story 453 00:18:29,100 --> 00:18:27,010 on the radio they may have in fact been 454 00:18:30,960 --> 00:18:29,110 in New Mexico they didn't see anything 455 00:18:33,570 --> 00:18:30,970 their descriptions from the newspaper 456 00:18:36,120 --> 00:18:33,580 don't fit the descriptions everybody 457 00:18:38,370 --> 00:18:36,130 else made up what the craft looked like 458 00:18:42,060 --> 00:18:38,380 they talked about seeing a melded pop 459 00:18:43,350 --> 00:18:42,070 bottle on the on the landing site but 460 00:18:45,090 --> 00:18:43,360 they didn't stop they were on the 461 00:18:46,980 --> 00:18:45,100 highway they didn't stop you can't see 462 00:18:48,180 --> 00:18:46,990 the landing site sight from the highway 463 00:18:50,430 --> 00:18:48,190 so there's no way that they would know 464 00:18:52,620 --> 00:18:50,440 about a melded pop-up on the scene there 465 00:18:54,659 --> 00:18:52,630 was in fact no a melted pop model on the 466 00:18:58,080 --> 00:18:54,669 scene of that one but a day or so later 467 00:19:01,380 --> 00:18:58,090 there was a landing in la madre new 468 00:19:03,810 --> 00:19:01,390 mexico and that was one of the things 469 00:19:06,180 --> 00:19:03,820 they talked about when they examined the 470 00:19:08,700 --> 00:19:06,190 the landing site the next morning there 471 00:19:10,560 --> 00:19:08,710 was a glass bottle of pop bottle that 472 00:19:12,810 --> 00:19:10,570 had been partially melted on the scene 473 00:19:15,390 --> 00:19:12,820 that's where they got the idea so I 474 00:19:17,760 --> 00:19:15,400 don't believe their tale a fella named 475 00:19:19,740 --> 00:19:17,770 Ralph de Gras in Iowa interviewed them 476 00:19:21,960 --> 00:19:19,750 some ten years after the fact and 477 00:19:24,870 --> 00:19:21,970 granted his ten years after the fact but 478 00:19:26,580 --> 00:19:24,880 their stories just didn't match at all 479 00:19:29,789 --> 00:19:26,590 they this their their stories were 480 00:19:32,669 --> 00:19:29,799 rather diverse and I understand after 481 00:19:34,380 --> 00:19:32,679 ten years your memories are gonna fade 482 00:19:36,750 --> 00:19:34,390 you're gonna add detail you're gonna 483 00:19:38,520 --> 00:19:36,760 forget things but their story seemed to 484 00:19:39,930 --> 00:19:38,530 be so divergent that it seemed 485 00:19:41,370 --> 00:19:39,940 ridiculous to believe they were actually 486 00:19:44,870 --> 00:19:41,380 in the same car doing the same thing 487 00:19:48,149 --> 00:19:44,880 seeing the same thing in April of 1964 488 00:19:51,450 --> 00:19:48,159 uh-huh just if you're just joining us 489 00:19:52,770 --> 00:19:51,460 now we are on with Kevin Randle and 490 00:19:55,140 --> 00:19:52,780 we're going to be we are talking about 491 00:19:55,890 --> 00:19:55,150 the Socorro but and a little bit later 492 00:19:58,140 --> 00:19:55,900 on and 493 00:20:01,050 --> 00:19:58,150 so at some point we're going to talk 494 00:20:02,990 --> 00:20:01,060 about a few other subjects including Tom 495 00:20:08,760 --> 00:20:03,000 DeLonge what's going on with that and 496 00:20:12,090 --> 00:20:08,770 and perhaps a few other topics so Lonnie 497 00:20:14,660 --> 00:20:12,100 Zamora and from you know what I've 498 00:20:17,970 --> 00:20:14,670 watched in the interviews of him and 499 00:20:21,480 --> 00:20:17,980 from Ray's accounting of him and other 500 00:20:26,180 --> 00:20:21,490 people's accounting even hynek's a real 501 00:20:29,910 --> 00:20:26,190 real solid witness he so put it over 502 00:20:31,470 --> 00:20:29,920 that he did not want to be involved in 503 00:20:35,460 --> 00:20:31,480 this this was nothing that he was 504 00:20:37,110 --> 00:20:35,470 looking for any fame for have you what 505 00:20:38,490 --> 00:20:37,120 what have you found out about Lonnie I 506 00:20:39,680 --> 00:20:38,500 mean he seemed like a really good guy 507 00:20:44,160 --> 00:20:39,690 too 508 00:20:46,440 --> 00:20:44,170 yes and and in fact my book encounters 509 00:20:47,760 --> 00:20:46,450 in the desert and started off talking 510 00:20:49,230 --> 00:20:47,770 about Lonnie's a what I learned 511 00:20:51,390 --> 00:20:49,240 from his obituary because he died a 512 00:20:53,100 --> 00:20:51,400 number of years ago and he had spent 513 00:20:55,260 --> 00:20:53,110 after the after this event he spent 15 514 00:20:58,020 --> 00:20:55,270 years in the police department then he 515 00:20:59,700 --> 00:20:58,030 got a different City job he'd also been 516 00:21:01,980 --> 00:20:59,710 in the New Mexico National Guard which 517 00:21:03,540 --> 00:21:01,990 he retired from after I don't know how 518 00:21:07,950 --> 00:21:03,550 many years but he retired from the New 519 00:21:11,040 --> 00:21:07,960 Mexico National Guard down-to-earth 520 00:21:13,070 --> 00:21:11,050 fellow maybe not the brightest guy that 521 00:21:15,120 --> 00:21:13,080 you you ever met but but certainly a 522 00:21:17,940 --> 00:21:15,130 bright enough to be a police officer 523 00:21:20,220 --> 00:21:17,950 bright enough to do a number of 524 00:21:21,300 --> 00:21:20,230 different things very very well yes I 525 00:21:23,670 --> 00:21:21,310 don't want to I don't want to run him 526 00:21:28,140 --> 00:21:23,680 down in that way a very very solid 527 00:21:30,390 --> 00:21:28,150 citizen he believed in Sam Chavez who 528 00:21:32,250 --> 00:21:30,400 was his good friend believed that Lonnie 529 00:21:34,470 --> 00:21:32,260 had seen a black project seen something 530 00:21:37,410 --> 00:21:34,480 going on in Alamogordo or white sands 531 00:21:39,420 --> 00:21:37,420 missile range some kind of testing of 532 00:21:41,700 --> 00:21:39,430 some kind of black project that had 533 00:21:44,250 --> 00:21:41,710 drifted off the range so Carl not that 534 00:21:47,750 --> 00:21:44,260 far from the the testing ground the 535 00:21:51,240 --> 00:21:47,760 proving ground range Hector quintanilla 536 00:21:52,920 --> 00:21:51,250 went to New Mexico and he had a document 537 00:21:55,800 --> 00:21:52,930 with him he's clear he was cleared for 538 00:21:57,690 --> 00:21:55,810 top secret and he was able to look into 539 00:22:01,320 --> 00:21:57,700 that and he was very disappointed that 540 00:22:04,500 --> 00:22:01,330 he hadn't been able to find any I put I 541 00:22:06,630 --> 00:22:04,510 put a short thing up on my blog ww Kevin 542 00:22:07,130 --> 00:22:06,640 Randall Boggs spot.com just the other 543 00:22:09,360 --> 00:22:07,140 day 544 00:22:11,850 --> 00:22:09,370 about what 545 00:22:15,420 --> 00:22:11,860 to nella had to say and what he did and 546 00:22:17,610 --> 00:22:15,430 how he had gone into New Mexico meant 547 00:22:21,060 --> 00:22:17,620 with the base commander at Holloman Air 548 00:22:22,080 --> 00:22:21,070 Force Base they because of the documents 549 00:22:23,640 --> 00:22:22,090 he brought with him they said you know 550 00:22:25,049 --> 00:22:23,650 you can look at anything ask anybody any 551 00:22:27,030 --> 00:22:25,059 questions you want will give you answers 552 00:22:28,799 --> 00:22:27,040 he couldn't find anything there couldn't 553 00:22:31,799 --> 00:22:28,809 find anything at white sands that would 554 00:22:34,140 --> 00:22:31,809 account for what Lonnie had seen and he 555 00:22:37,280 --> 00:22:34,150 said that he had to mark the case 556 00:22:40,890 --> 00:22:37,290 unidentified in a surprising burst of 557 00:22:42,540 --> 00:22:40,900 integrity I guess because he couldn't 558 00:22:44,760 --> 00:22:42,550 find any answer he couldn't plug 559 00:22:46,770 --> 00:22:44,770 anything into this be given the nature 560 00:22:48,120 --> 00:22:46,780 of it I mean you could say well it might 561 00:22:49,890 --> 00:22:48,130 have been this that or the other thing 562 00:22:51,510 --> 00:22:49,900 but you got the landing traces to deal 563 00:22:54,620 --> 00:22:51,520 with it was clear from the test that 564 00:22:57,990 --> 00:22:54,630 they made on the landing site that the 565 00:22:59,549 --> 00:22:58,000 landing gear markings were not dug into 566 00:23:01,590 --> 00:22:59,559 the ground meaning they had not been 567 00:23:03,360 --> 00:23:01,600 excavated but they were pressed into the 568 00:23:06,060 --> 00:23:03,370 ground suggesting something very heavy 569 00:23:09,080 --> 00:23:06,070 had landed in that area something would 570 00:23:11,640 --> 00:23:09,090 be very hard to fake with a shovel and 571 00:23:14,160 --> 00:23:11,650 stuff like that so I mean he couldn't 572 00:23:18,630 --> 00:23:14,170 find it and he said in his report or in 573 00:23:19,890 --> 00:23:18,640 his book quintanilla did that he didn't 574 00:23:21,540 --> 00:23:19,900 wanna he didn't want to market 575 00:23:23,190 --> 00:23:21,550 unidentified because he knew the UFO 576 00:23:25,530 --> 00:23:23,200 hobbyist would have a field day with it 577 00:23:28,440 --> 00:23:25,540 or the UFO clubs and that would be like 578 00:23:30,930 --> 00:23:28,450 the Lorenz ins and things like that but 579 00:23:32,880 --> 00:23:30,940 he had he marked it as unidentified and 580 00:23:36,030 --> 00:23:32,890 he thought that the answer would be in 581 00:23:37,140 --> 00:23:36,040 Lonnie Zamora head I don't know if he 582 00:23:39,419 --> 00:23:37,150 was suggesting some kind of 583 00:23:41,010 --> 00:23:39,429 hallucination or of Lonnie heads would 584 00:23:43,290 --> 00:23:41,020 have seen something that he didn't talk 585 00:23:49,220 --> 00:23:43,300 about that may have helped identify the 586 00:23:53,280 --> 00:23:49,230 craft for for them if he had if he'd 587 00:23:57,060 --> 00:23:53,290 been a little bit more verbal about what 588 00:23:58,710 --> 00:23:57,070 he'd seen but Lonnie Lonnie didn't like 589 00:24:02,340 --> 00:23:58,720 to talk about it but he did go to the 590 00:24:03,510 --> 00:24:02,350 city attorney the Socorro city attorney 591 00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:03,520 to make sure that there wasn't anything 592 00:24:08,160 --> 00:24:04,690 was gonna get him in trouble with his 593 00:24:10,410 --> 00:24:08,170 job and he described what he had seen to 594 00:24:13,710 --> 00:24:10,420 the city attorney there and a fellow 595 00:24:15,270 --> 00:24:13,720 named Baca was I think a paralegal and 596 00:24:18,180 --> 00:24:15,280 worked in the City Attorney's Office in 597 00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:18,190 his son Ricky Baca now Rick Baca cuz 598 00:24:22,950 --> 00:24:21,010 he's he was 14 in 1964 so you can 599 00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:22,960 imagine you know he's 600 00:24:29,460 --> 00:24:24,970 he's in his 60s now so he would be Rick 601 00:24:32,070 --> 00:24:29,470 maka based on the descriptions at Lonnie 602 00:24:35,190 --> 00:24:32,080 instead he drew an object made an 603 00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:35,200 illustration of it his father took it 604 00:24:38,399 --> 00:24:36,970 back to the city attorney and Lonnie 605 00:24:40,350 --> 00:24:38,409 Zamora looked at it and said yeah that's 606 00:24:42,419 --> 00:24:40,360 the that's the thing that's pretty much 607 00:24:43,830 --> 00:24:42,429 what I saw I mean he had a chance to 608 00:24:46,590 --> 00:24:43,840 adjust the details anything if you 609 00:24:48,690 --> 00:24:46,600 wanted to that illustration appeared in 610 00:24:53,130 --> 00:24:48,700 the local newspaper the defense our 611 00:24:56,070 --> 00:24:53,140 chieftain and it appeared in the April 612 00:24:58,380 --> 00:24:56,080 Bulletin for May of 1964 so you can see 613 00:25:00,690 --> 00:24:58,390 the picture that Rick Bock I drew it's 614 00:25:02,639 --> 00:25:00,700 also in my book I had a color 615 00:25:04,500 --> 00:25:02,649 illustration of Baca holding the picture 616 00:25:05,850 --> 00:25:04,510 but of course all the pictures in the 617 00:25:07,710 --> 00:25:05,860 book are in black and white so you don't 618 00:25:08,490 --> 00:25:07,720 get the full impact of it but you get to 619 00:25:11,600 --> 00:25:08,500 see Rick Baca 620 00:25:14,130 --> 00:25:11,610 holding the picture that he had drawn in 621 00:25:15,630 --> 00:25:14,140 1964 based on the descriptions at Lonnie 622 00:25:18,210 --> 00:25:15,640 Zamora had given so we've got something 623 00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:18,220 that took place within literally days of 624 00:25:25,019 --> 00:25:21,490 deciding and and Rick Baca making an 625 00:25:26,519 --> 00:25:25,029 illustration of it so the the situation 626 00:25:28,710 --> 00:25:26,529 is Ronnie comes Lonnie 627 00:25:31,049 --> 00:25:28,720 comes over the rise yup comes over the 628 00:25:33,060 --> 00:25:31,059 rise he's he thinks at first that he 629 00:25:37,110 --> 00:25:33,070 sees an overturned car he gets a little 630 00:25:39,690 --> 00:25:37,120 closer he sees two figures small figures 631 00:25:43,409 --> 00:25:39,700 and a white white overalls or coveralls 632 00:25:46,740 --> 00:25:43,419 whatever they're in and they appear to 633 00:25:49,350 --> 00:25:46,750 be startled when they see him they go up 634 00:25:51,180 --> 00:25:49,360 the ramp ladder or whatever it is and we 635 00:25:52,769 --> 00:25:51,190 assume we assume they went up in a 636 00:25:55,080 --> 00:25:52,779 ladder in the back as Lonnie couldn't 637 00:25:58,289 --> 00:25:55,090 see the ladder they they ran around the 638 00:26:00,690 --> 00:25:58,299 back and there were round holes in the 639 00:26:03,060 --> 00:26:00,700 ground with some some strange footprints 640 00:26:04,649 --> 00:26:03,070 around them so the assumption is this 641 00:26:06,450 --> 00:26:04,659 was a ladder that came out of the craft 642 00:26:07,830 --> 00:26:06,460 and they went up and down the ladder but 643 00:26:10,769 --> 00:26:07,840 Lonnie didn't see that so that's an 644 00:26:12,810 --> 00:26:10,779 assumption made by practically everybody 645 00:26:14,700 --> 00:26:12,820 yeah so anyway they might have floated 646 00:26:17,940 --> 00:26:14,710 in whatever they did they went in the 647 00:26:21,090 --> 00:26:17,950 craft now a heavy craft as it is now a 648 00:26:24,049 --> 00:26:21,100 flame came out of the creosote bushes 649 00:26:26,310 --> 00:26:24,059 caught on fire but wasn't there a 650 00:26:28,830 --> 00:26:26,320 rumbling noise and then there was no 651 00:26:30,690 --> 00:26:28,840 noise at all there was a roar loud roar 652 00:26:32,159 --> 00:26:30,700 and the thing took off into the sky and 653 00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:32,169 of course eventually the craft faded and 654 00:26:35,590 --> 00:26:33,730 the war faded but you have to remember 655 00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:35,600 as the craft came over 656 00:26:40,060 --> 00:26:38,450 Socorro there was a roar that did alert 657 00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:40,070 the other people in the area that 658 00:26:42,790 --> 00:26:41,690 something was going on so we know that 659 00:26:47,080 --> 00:26:42,800 there was a roar we know there was a 660 00:26:49,780 --> 00:26:47,090 craft of some kind over Socorro going 661 00:26:52,690 --> 00:26:49,790 into the spot where Lani saw saw it land 662 00:26:55,510 --> 00:26:52,700 the other thing the skeptics make a big 663 00:26:59,560 --> 00:26:55,520 deal is Lani wore corrective lenses 664 00:27:03,100 --> 00:26:59,570 which we would all call glasses and at 665 00:27:04,990 --> 00:27:03,110 one point he lost his glasses but it was 666 00:27:07,420 --> 00:27:05,000 after he had seen the creatures after 667 00:27:09,610 --> 00:27:07,430 he'd seen the symbol on the craft and as 668 00:27:10,930 --> 00:27:09,620 he walked down there the thing began to 669 00:27:12,250 --> 00:27:10,940 roar and he thought it was gonna blow up 670 00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:12,260 and he was heading back to his car to 671 00:27:15,970 --> 00:27:14,450 take cover and he he bumped the fender 672 00:27:18,340 --> 00:27:15,980 of his car and the glasses came off so 673 00:27:19,990 --> 00:27:18,350 the observations he had made had already 674 00:27:21,700 --> 00:27:20,000 been made by the time he lost his 675 00:27:23,230 --> 00:27:21,710 glasses so the fact they had lost him 676 00:27:24,820 --> 00:27:23,240 and the end of the sighting is 677 00:27:27,880 --> 00:27:24,830 completely and totally irrelevant 678 00:27:30,790 --> 00:27:27,890 he got probably within thirty yards of 679 00:27:32,200 --> 00:27:30,800 the thing he got much closer than was 680 00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:32,210 suggested in a lot of the literature 681 00:27:37,300 --> 00:27:35,330 that I would I looked at so he saw it it 682 00:27:39,610 --> 00:27:37,310 was much closer to it than they then 683 00:27:43,210 --> 00:27:39,620 they said and sange 684 00:27:45,940 --> 00:27:43,220 Sam Chavez arrived just as the thing was 685 00:27:49,870 --> 00:27:45,950 disappearing in the distance the idea 686 00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:49,880 and Rey made this point that the that 687 00:27:53,410 --> 00:27:51,650 the Chavez probably saw it in the sky 688 00:27:56,770 --> 00:27:53,420 but they saw how Lonnie was being 689 00:27:59,230 --> 00:27:56,780 treated by everybody questioning his 690 00:28:02,020 --> 00:27:59,240 sanity and everything else I'm and and 691 00:28:04,030 --> 00:28:02,030 looking at it from what what Holder had 692 00:28:06,970 --> 00:28:04,040 said Richard hold her being the air for 693 00:28:09,550 --> 00:28:06,980 the army officer Burns being the FBI guy 694 00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:09,560 the Lorenz ins of course would be very 695 00:28:15,550 --> 00:28:13,970 cordial to Lonnie because they were you 696 00:28:17,380 --> 00:28:15,560 know leading a UFO investigative 697 00:28:21,220 --> 00:28:17,390 organization and and they were very 698 00:28:23,470 --> 00:28:21,230 accepting of stories like this alien 699 00:28:26,650 --> 00:28:23,480 creatures and I think the nycap which 700 00:28:28,300 --> 00:28:26,660 race and ferd belong to were much less 701 00:28:30,640 --> 00:28:28,310 accepting of those stories that it 702 00:28:32,110 --> 00:28:30,650 seemed at four nycap it was okay to see 703 00:28:34,300 --> 00:28:32,120 it the object in the sky but if it 704 00:28:35,890 --> 00:28:34,310 landed or people were seen outside it 705 00:28:38,350 --> 00:28:35,900 and I cap wasn't really happy there 706 00:28:41,070 --> 00:28:38,360 their mission at that time seemed to be 707 00:28:43,660 --> 00:28:41,080 more pushing for congressional 708 00:28:46,150 --> 00:28:43,670 investigations into UFOs II the Lorenz 709 00:28:48,370 --> 00:28:46,160 ins were more investigative in nature I 710 00:28:49,330 --> 00:28:48,380 suppose which is not to say rain 711 00:28:51,790 --> 00:28:49,340 Stanford wasn't 712 00:28:54,810 --> 00:28:51,800 to get even in nature or or that he was 713 00:28:59,950 --> 00:28:54,820 pushing for congressional original 714 00:29:01,960 --> 00:28:59,960 congressional investigations he was you 715 00:29:05,590 --> 00:29:01,970 know he was he was the NICAP guy on the 716 00:29:08,110 --> 00:29:05,600 scene and didn't I cap corporate policy 717 00:29:12,010 --> 00:29:08,120 of course didn't agree with Ray seem to 718 00:29:14,440 --> 00:29:12,020 think her buerre believed but you know 719 00:29:17,110 --> 00:29:14,450 you look at all of all of that sort of 720 00:29:19,930 --> 00:29:17,120 thing and but but the idea is that 721 00:29:22,230 --> 00:29:19,940 Lonnie had been III think probably got a 722 00:29:25,030 --> 00:29:22,240 lot of nasty questions from the press 723 00:29:26,950 --> 00:29:25,040 because as you well know the the press 724 00:29:30,670 --> 00:29:26,960 is much too sophisticated to believe in 725 00:29:32,170 --> 00:29:30,680 flying saucers and and if there is no 726 00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:32,180 flying saucers somebody like Lonnie 727 00:29:37,840 --> 00:29:36,410 Zamora is going to be just dead meat 728 00:29:40,540 --> 00:29:37,850 form they're just gonna have a field day 729 00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:40,550 with him making fun of him right and and 730 00:29:44,530 --> 00:29:42,170 and that sort of thing I and I think 731 00:29:48,820 --> 00:29:44,540 that that holder and burns may have 732 00:29:50,770 --> 00:29:48,830 contributed to that slightly but not in 733 00:29:53,080 --> 00:29:50,780 a nefarious way and and I say that 734 00:29:55,500 --> 00:29:53,090 because Holder said to Lonnie 735 00:29:58,870 --> 00:29:55,510 don't talk about the symbol you saw and 736 00:30:00,700 --> 00:29:58,880 the idea was holder wasn't trying to 737 00:30:02,410 --> 00:30:00,710 suppress information he was thinking 738 00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:02,420 that if others came forward with the 739 00:30:06,280 --> 00:30:04,610 sighting and they couldn't describe the 740 00:30:07,540 --> 00:30:06,290 symbol or they came up with some kind of 741 00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:07,550 bizarre symbol they would know the 742 00:30:10,630 --> 00:30:09,410 people weren't telling the truth of 743 00:30:12,160 --> 00:30:10,640 course he was always a possibility that 744 00:30:13,930 --> 00:30:12,170 they saw the object from the backside 745 00:30:16,300 --> 00:30:13,940 and didn't see a symbol on it well 746 00:30:18,130 --> 00:30:16,310 that's another argument but but it was a 747 00:30:19,990 --> 00:30:18,140 way of holding back one piece of 748 00:30:23,260 --> 00:30:20,000 information try to validate other 749 00:30:25,210 --> 00:30:23,270 sightings Byrne suggested that that 750 00:30:26,980 --> 00:30:25,220 Lonnie not talk about the alien 751 00:30:29,260 --> 00:30:26,990 creatures because he thought that that 752 00:30:31,720 --> 00:30:29,270 might hold him up to ridicule and little 753 00:30:35,980 --> 00:30:31,730 rent Lorenz ins in in their article in 754 00:30:37,900 --> 00:30:35,990 the May of 1964 Apple Bulletin talked 755 00:30:40,630 --> 00:30:37,910 about that as well and they kind of 756 00:30:45,820 --> 00:30:40,640 agreed with those guys but they but was 757 00:30:47,950 --> 00:30:45,830 the most interesting was I think Coral 758 00:30:50,260 --> 00:30:47,960 probably coral Lorenzen was was pushing 759 00:30:52,630 --> 00:30:50,270 Lonnie for descriptions of the the alien 760 00:30:54,280 --> 00:30:52,640 creatures and he eventually gave her 761 00:30:55,990 --> 00:30:54,290 gave her description but he wouldn't 762 00:30:57,700 --> 00:30:56,000 talk to him about the symbol I thought 763 00:30:59,680 --> 00:30:57,710 it would that was kind of reversed if if 764 00:31:01,090 --> 00:30:59,690 it was me now the symbol looks like this 765 00:31:01,750 --> 00:31:01,100 but I didn't see any creatures you know 766 00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:01,760 that kind of 767 00:31:08,830 --> 00:31:06,050 because that really was was going to set 768 00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:08,840 the news media on fire and burns I think 769 00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:10,970 when he suggested Loni not talk about 770 00:31:15,640 --> 00:31:12,650 the alien creatures was simply 771 00:31:17,500 --> 00:31:15,650 attempting to stop some of the 772 00:31:19,660 --> 00:31:17,510 ridiculous we directed to Lonnie's 773 00:31:22,870 --> 00:31:19,670 because he talked about alien creatures 774 00:31:25,090 --> 00:31:22,880 yeah from what I what I had recalled 775 00:31:28,210 --> 00:31:25,100 that Lonnie didn't talk too much about 776 00:31:32,740 --> 00:31:28,220 the the creatures or the figures at all 777 00:31:34,690 --> 00:31:32,750 and am I wrong about that he didn't talk 778 00:31:36,220 --> 00:31:34,700 a lot he talked he talked to a couple of 779 00:31:38,080 --> 00:31:36,230 people on the first night he talked to 780 00:31:40,600 --> 00:31:38,090 people he did talk to the lorenz about 781 00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:40,610 that but once we get away from those 782 00:31:44,500 --> 00:31:43,010 initial contacts and we move into the 783 00:31:46,600 --> 00:31:44,510 next week in the next ten days in the 784 00:31:47,890 --> 00:31:46,610 next two months over the next year's he 785 00:31:49,420 --> 00:31:47,900 really didn't talk about the alien 786 00:31:52,450 --> 00:31:49,430 creatures all that much I have a friend 787 00:31:54,340 --> 00:31:52,460 Bob Cornett and we've done some UFO 788 00:31:55,840 --> 00:31:54,350 investigating together and he was down 789 00:31:57,640 --> 00:31:55,850 in Socorro he wanted to go to the Very 790 00:31:59,620 --> 00:31:57,650 Large Array which is the radio telescope 791 00:32:01,720 --> 00:31:59,630 set up on the plains of San Agustin I 792 00:32:03,660 --> 00:32:01,730 always I always called it the whopping 793 00:32:07,240 --> 00:32:03,670 huge array but yeah the Very Large Array 794 00:32:09,880 --> 00:32:07,250 and while he was in Socorro he called 795 00:32:11,050 --> 00:32:09,890 Lonnie Zamora in Lonnie was having a 796 00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:11,060 barbecue that night and said yeah come 797 00:32:13,930 --> 00:32:12,410 on over we're not gonna talk about the 798 00:32:15,430 --> 00:32:13,940 flying saucer but come on over and we'll 799 00:32:17,620 --> 00:32:15,440 have a barbecue and I thought you know 800 00:32:21,160 --> 00:32:17,630 but that gives you kind of an idea of 801 00:32:23,740 --> 00:32:21,170 who Lonnie Zamora is very friendly very 802 00:32:25,030 --> 00:32:23,750 personable no come on I don't know who 803 00:32:27,190 --> 00:32:25,040 the hell you are I've never heard of 804 00:32:28,450 --> 00:32:27,200 heard from you but come on over to the 805 00:32:32,560 --> 00:32:28,460 barbecue but we're not gonna talk about 806 00:32:34,390 --> 00:32:32,570 the Flying Saucer Wow did he go there 807 00:32:35,740 --> 00:32:34,400 and oh yeah I had a nice time with 808 00:32:36,940 --> 00:32:35,750 Lonnie Zorin they didn't talk about 809 00:32:38,410 --> 00:32:36,950 flying saucers that must have been 810 00:32:40,840 --> 00:32:38,420 difficult that part must have been 811 00:32:43,300 --> 00:32:40,850 difficult I would have just I would have 812 00:32:45,580 --> 00:32:43,310 just been beside myself trying to figure 813 00:32:50,380 --> 00:32:45,590 out how can I get him to talk about this 814 00:32:52,240 --> 00:32:50,390 it's called alcohol Lonnie I don't well 815 00:32:54,580 --> 00:32:52,250 there's a story going around line he was 816 00:32:56,230 --> 00:32:54,590 a big drinker but I I think that isn't 817 00:32:58,740 --> 00:32:56,240 just another way of trying to belittle 818 00:33:01,960 --> 00:32:58,750 Lonnie some more on what he'd seen 819 00:33:05,740 --> 00:33:01,970 there's a guy named Paul Hardin who 820 00:33:07,570 --> 00:33:05,750 lives in Socorro and knew Luna Lonnie 821 00:33:10,110 --> 00:33:07,580 very well and just not long before 822 00:33:12,790 --> 00:33:10,120 Lonnie died they went out on a 823 00:33:15,460 --> 00:33:12,800 sightseeing tour around the sights of 824 00:33:15,680 --> 00:33:15,470 where the the landing took place and 825 00:33:17,539 --> 00:33:15,690 that 826 00:33:19,820 --> 00:33:17,549 sort of thing and talked about it and 827 00:33:21,200 --> 00:33:19,830 Lonnie opened up a little bit to him but 828 00:33:23,149 --> 00:33:21,210 hard and said well it was just between 829 00:33:25,460 --> 00:33:23,159 friends and I just don't really want to 830 00:33:27,259 --> 00:33:25,470 violate the violate that and I'm 831 00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:27,269 thinking yeah okay I can get behind that 832 00:33:35,509 --> 00:33:31,730 I understand that but Lonnie just was 833 00:33:37,490 --> 00:33:35,519 once the initial excitement was over I 834 00:33:39,710 --> 00:33:37,500 think Lonnie was very reticent to talk 835 00:33:41,990 --> 00:33:39,720 to anybody if you had no official 836 00:33:43,369 --> 00:33:42,000 standing he didn't want to talk to you I 837 00:33:46,490 --> 00:33:43,379 think race Stanford may be the only 838 00:33:48,769 --> 00:33:46,500 person outside of the military and maybe 839 00:33:50,539 --> 00:33:48,779 the lorenz ins who managed to get Lonnie 840 00:33:52,669 --> 00:33:50,549 Zamora to chat with him about this thing 841 00:33:54,499 --> 00:33:52,679 but it it was because Rey was there at 842 00:33:57,019 --> 00:33:54,509 the very beginning you know he was there 843 00:33:58,850 --> 00:33:57,029 within literally days of the of the 844 00:34:00,259 --> 00:33:58,860 sighting four or five days of the 845 00:34:02,600 --> 00:34:00,269 sighting well it happened on a Friday 846 00:34:06,169 --> 00:34:02,610 night and ray blue in the town on I 847 00:34:07,930 --> 00:34:06,179 believe he said Tuesday evening and met 848 00:34:11,329 --> 00:34:07,940 with Lonnie and the police and everybody 849 00:34:13,309 --> 00:34:11,339 Wednesday morning in fact ray was 850 00:34:15,290 --> 00:34:13,319 telling me that what happened was he got 851 00:34:17,210 --> 00:34:15,300 there on Tuesday night I he had a 852 00:34:18,740 --> 00:34:17,220 meeting set up for Lonnie on Wednesday 853 00:34:20,180 --> 00:34:18,750 morning he called the house they said 854 00:34:21,950 --> 00:34:20,190 well all needs to sleep and he waited 855 00:34:23,869 --> 00:34:21,960 awhile they call and they said well on 856 00:34:26,270 --> 00:34:23,879 he's gone and so ray finally called the 857 00:34:27,530 --> 00:34:26,280 police station and they talked about him 858 00:34:29,329 --> 00:34:27,540 being out on the lawn 859 00:34:31,430 --> 00:34:29,339 all right maybe he didn't call he went 860 00:34:34,879 --> 00:34:31,440 to the police station and they were out 861 00:34:37,550 --> 00:34:34,889 at the landing site so they took ray out 862 00:34:39,770 --> 00:34:37,560 there gave him directions out there and 863 00:34:41,450 --> 00:34:39,780 when he arrived the police were gonna 864 00:34:44,480 --> 00:34:41,460 chase him off and honey says now let him 865 00:34:46,849 --> 00:34:44,490 come on in so ray got to be there on the 866 00:34:50,149 --> 00:34:46,859 scene with Lonnie and probably sergeant 867 00:34:51,319 --> 00:34:50,159 Chavez and that sort of thing and Ray 868 00:34:53,030 --> 00:34:51,329 says you know he was there taking 869 00:34:54,649 --> 00:34:53,040 samples and Hynek hadn't brought 870 00:34:58,099 --> 00:34:54,659 anything to take samples and borrowed 871 00:35:00,079 --> 00:34:58,109 some of his his sample containers but 872 00:35:04,790 --> 00:35:00,089 the thing that the that I noticed and 873 00:35:06,380 --> 00:35:04,800 the first night holder took a holder as 874 00:35:09,290 --> 00:35:06,390 opposed to hardened by the way holder 875 00:35:11,270 --> 00:35:09,300 they the army officer took samples on 876 00:35:13,910 --> 00:35:11,280 the site and I was what happened to 877 00:35:17,420 --> 00:35:13,920 those samples and I was able to display 878 00:35:19,730 --> 00:35:17,430 Halder gave him two Hynek so Hynek had 879 00:35:21,410 --> 00:35:19,740 samples and it would have been a good 880 00:35:23,510 --> 00:35:21,420 chain of custody from holder to high 881 00:35:26,420 --> 00:35:23,520 neck but Hynek took some of his own and 882 00:35:29,270 --> 00:35:26,430 Ray took some of his own so but he was 883 00:35:31,040 --> 00:35:29,280 out on the site that morning and 884 00:35:33,350 --> 00:35:31,050 later on after the big press conference 885 00:35:34,880 --> 00:35:33,360 held I guess in hynek's room ray went 886 00:35:37,340 --> 00:35:34,890 back out there because Lonnie had 887 00:35:39,110 --> 00:35:37,350 mentioned that there was a pointed to a 888 00:35:41,900 --> 00:35:39,120 stone that had some markings on it that 889 00:35:43,490 --> 00:35:41,910 might have been part might have been 890 00:35:44,930 --> 00:35:43,500 metal scrapings off the landing gear or 891 00:35:47,660 --> 00:35:44,940 something like that and Ray was able to 892 00:35:51,050 --> 00:35:47,670 recover that stone and hoping to be able 893 00:35:54,530 --> 00:35:51,060 to submit those metal scrapings for 894 00:35:57,620 --> 00:35:54,540 analysis yes that's an the story ray has 895 00:36:01,100 --> 00:35:57,630 talked to me about with not such a great 896 00:36:04,160 --> 00:36:01,110 ending unfortunately and by the way just 897 00:36:05,780 --> 00:36:04,170 a little housekeeping here I am NOT I'm 898 00:36:09,260 --> 00:36:05,790 not going to be involved with chat 899 00:36:10,730 --> 00:36:09,270 during most of the show as it's it's 900 00:36:12,590 --> 00:36:10,740 very distracting or can be very 901 00:36:14,510 --> 00:36:12,600 distracting and I apologize to the 902 00:36:17,000 --> 00:36:14,520 people in chat but don't give up because 903 00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:17,010 in the second half of the show the 904 00:36:21,050 --> 00:36:19,410 second part of the show toured three 905 00:36:24,050 --> 00:36:21,060 quarters in or so I'm gonna be taking 906 00:36:25,850 --> 00:36:24,060 questions on chat and also if someone 907 00:36:27,380 --> 00:36:25,860 wants to call in if you want to write 908 00:36:29,600 --> 00:36:27,390 the number down you can call them in the 909 00:36:33,320 --> 00:36:29,610 second part of the show that number six 910 00:36:37,960 --> 00:36:33,330 oh three nine six seven four oh three oh 911 00:36:41,240 --> 00:36:37,970 so so the I want to talk to you about 912 00:36:43,250 --> 00:36:41,250 what I think is probably besides the 913 00:36:45,640 --> 00:36:43,260 figures is probably the most 914 00:36:49,190 --> 00:36:45,650 controversial part of the whole story 915 00:36:51,440 --> 00:36:49,200 but before that I don't want to forget 916 00:36:54,020 --> 00:36:51,450 to ask this questions the witnesses the 917 00:36:57,370 --> 00:36:54,030 thing that got you interested in 918 00:37:00,230 --> 00:36:57,380 pursuing this in the beginning how far 919 00:37:02,210 --> 00:37:00,240 did you get with that or is it just 920 00:37:04,160 --> 00:37:02,220 plain a dead end and and it won't go 921 00:37:06,530 --> 00:37:04,170 anywhere there's really nothing I can do 922 00:37:08,780 --> 00:37:06,540 with this this day and age it's you know 923 00:37:10,610 --> 00:37:08,790 more than fifty years ago the people 924 00:37:12,470 --> 00:37:10,620 most of the people are probably passed 925 00:37:13,910 --> 00:37:12,480 away I'm sure there were young people in 926 00:37:15,950 --> 00:37:13,920 the area who may have heard something 927 00:37:18,260 --> 00:37:15,960 I'm not sure if they would still live in 928 00:37:20,600 --> 00:37:18,270 the area Ray said that he had talked to 929 00:37:23,300 --> 00:37:20,610 a couple of women in the days that 930 00:37:24,560 --> 00:37:23,310 followed he was at the radio station or 931 00:37:26,600 --> 00:37:24,570 not the radio station but going out to 932 00:37:27,830 --> 00:37:26,610 dinner with the radio guy whose name 933 00:37:33,620 --> 00:37:27,840 escapes me at the moment 934 00:37:35,150 --> 00:37:33,630 Stroud strode strode and they were two 935 00:37:36,830 --> 00:37:35,160 women had come up to them while they 936 00:37:39,590 --> 00:37:36,840 were there and talked about having seen 937 00:37:41,420 --> 00:37:39,600 or heard they were audio witnesses right 938 00:37:42,980 --> 00:37:41,430 right some they'd heard something go 939 00:37:45,530 --> 00:37:42,990 over is what what he said 940 00:37:46,430 --> 00:37:45,540 and I asked Trey about that and he said 941 00:37:47,780 --> 00:37:46,440 well they were older women they're 942 00:37:49,310 --> 00:37:47,790 probably dead by now so would you write 943 00:37:51,170 --> 00:37:49,320 their names down because I'm thinking if 944 00:37:53,120 --> 00:37:51,180 we get ahold of a city directory or some 945 00:37:55,760 --> 00:37:53,130 or a city phone book or something from 946 00:37:57,830 --> 00:37:55,770 1964 and the library probably has copies 947 00:37:59,260 --> 00:37:57,840 of it or maybe the University I'm not 948 00:38:01,370 --> 00:37:59,270 the University but the school of mines 949 00:38:03,350 --> 00:38:01,380 library there might have had something 950 00:38:05,630 --> 00:38:03,360 we could look up and see where these 951 00:38:07,280 --> 00:38:05,640 people lived and then we could go back 952 00:38:08,570 --> 00:38:07,290 into that area and kind of knock on 953 00:38:12,080 --> 00:38:08,580 doors and see if there's anybody around 954 00:38:15,740 --> 00:38:12,090 who was there 1964 but Ray was uh I 955 00:38:18,380 --> 00:38:15,750 guess Ray is his files are not as 956 00:38:19,940 --> 00:38:18,390 organized as they could be and and it's 957 00:38:21,320 --> 00:38:19,950 not not really to point a finger ray 958 00:38:22,850 --> 00:38:21,330 because if you go to my files now 959 00:38:24,440 --> 00:38:22,860 they're not just court organizes they 960 00:38:25,970 --> 00:38:24,450 could be either I sometimes spend days 961 00:38:27,740 --> 00:38:25,980 trying to find something and eventually 962 00:38:30,200 --> 00:38:27,750 have to give up and hope I stumble 963 00:38:31,220 --> 00:38:30,210 across it at some point because you know 964 00:38:33,410 --> 00:38:31,230 I'm we're talking about stuff you know 965 00:38:34,970 --> 00:38:33,420 fifty years old right right and he 966 00:38:36,560 --> 00:38:34,980 didn't have that he didn't have the name 967 00:38:39,590 --> 00:38:36,570 so there was really a dead end there as 968 00:38:42,380 --> 00:38:39,600 well what about a police a police 969 00:38:43,550 --> 00:38:42,390 blotter you know the police guy didn't 970 00:38:46,130 --> 00:38:43,560 write it down he didn't dump any 971 00:38:48,260 --> 00:38:46,140 information the only reason we know we 972 00:38:50,180 --> 00:38:48,270 were able to corroborate this as Holder 973 00:38:51,560 --> 00:38:50,190 mentioned in his report that he wrote 974 00:38:53,390 --> 00:38:51,570 that night about two o'clock in the 975 00:38:54,770 --> 00:38:53,400 morning I think he said it was and he 976 00:38:56,450 --> 00:38:54,780 had called it into the Pentagon the 977 00:38:57,860 --> 00:38:56,460 command post at the Pentagon and in the 978 00:38:59,030 --> 00:38:57,870 report it says that three people had 979 00:39:01,400 --> 00:38:59,040 called the police and they'd seen the 980 00:39:03,140 --> 00:39:01,410 flame or the object in the sky so we 981 00:39:05,060 --> 00:39:03,150 were able to verify that the calls took 982 00:39:08,390 --> 00:39:05,070 place that there were witnesses in the 983 00:39:10,730 --> 00:39:08,400 area talking about this but nobody how 984 00:39:14,780 --> 00:39:10,740 hard would it have been to find them in 985 00:39:16,820 --> 00:39:14,790 in 1964 gee yeah he had the radio guy 986 00:39:18,290 --> 00:39:16,830 very interested in it he could have put 987 00:39:19,670 --> 00:39:18,300 something on the radio and said we know 988 00:39:21,080 --> 00:39:19,680 anybody sitting heard or seen anything 989 00:39:22,850 --> 00:39:21,090 please give us a call at the radio 990 00:39:24,020 --> 00:39:22,860 station right the newspaper could have 991 00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:24,030 put something in it you know if you 992 00:39:29,390 --> 00:39:26,010 heard or saw anything give us called the 993 00:39:31,100 --> 00:39:29,400 newspaper you could have knocked on some 994 00:39:33,350 --> 00:39:31,110 of the doors in the area where the 995 00:39:34,850 --> 00:39:33,360 things should have flown over to see if 996 00:39:38,870 --> 00:39:34,860 you could find any of those people but 997 00:39:40,280 --> 00:39:38,880 nobody did that in 1964 given the nature 998 00:39:42,170 --> 00:39:40,290 of the case the fact that there's 999 00:39:44,660 --> 00:39:42,180 landing traces given the fact that 1000 00:39:45,890 --> 00:39:44,670 you've got a police officer as an 1001 00:39:48,350 --> 00:39:45,900 observer 1002 00:39:50,540 --> 00:39:48,360 you've got sightings that take place in 1003 00:39:52,540 --> 00:39:50,550 a couple of hours after the event in 1004 00:39:55,040 --> 00:39:52,550 other locations in Jerry Clark and his 1005 00:39:56,470 --> 00:39:55,050 UFO encyclopedia and my and my mocha 1006 00:39:58,060 --> 00:39:56,480 Encounters in the desert 1007 00:40:00,550 --> 00:39:58,070 I talked about those guys and there's 1008 00:40:03,970 --> 00:40:00,560 names in fact Jerry Clark and 1009 00:40:06,790 --> 00:40:03,980 interviewed holder in the 90s but you've 1010 00:40:09,460 --> 00:40:06,800 got an opportunity here to gather some 1011 00:40:12,580 --> 00:40:09,470 evidence and nobody gathered that 1012 00:40:16,930 --> 00:40:12,590 evidence and I'm just astonished I can 1013 00:40:19,180 --> 00:40:16,940 see in some cases where you you can't 1014 00:40:21,430 --> 00:40:19,190 really do that I mean the situation is 1015 00:40:24,820 --> 00:40:21,440 such you can't do that or all the people 1016 00:40:26,349 --> 00:40:24,830 that are involved you know and and and I 1017 00:40:28,060 --> 00:40:26,359 think of a level and case and I looked 1018 00:40:29,349 --> 00:40:28,070 at the I've been out to the locations 1019 00:40:33,730 --> 00:40:29,359 where a number of the sightings took 1020 00:40:36,280 --> 00:40:33,740 place and I'm there in like 2010 so it's 1021 00:40:38,109 --> 00:40:36,290 it's 50 years after this land is this 1022 00:40:41,050 --> 00:40:38,119 series of landings take place in level 1023 00:40:43,390 --> 00:40:41,060 land on in November of 1957 and I give 1024 00:40:44,890 --> 00:40:43,400 you the name level land in 1957 so those 1025 00:40:46,590 --> 00:40:44,900 people at home with their computers can 1026 00:40:51,010 --> 00:40:46,600 google it and see all the information 1027 00:40:52,840 --> 00:40:51,020 but and in fact in the in the book 1028 00:40:56,500 --> 00:40:52,850 there's there's actually some pictures 1029 00:40:59,170 --> 00:40:56,510 of the the sites in level land as they 1030 00:41:01,090 --> 00:40:59,180 looked in nineteen and in 2010 so you 1031 00:41:03,250 --> 00:41:01,100 can see there's nobody around you know 1032 00:41:07,770 --> 00:41:03,260 it's out it's outside of town I think 1033 00:41:09,790 --> 00:41:07,780 it's north of town it is really no 1034 00:41:12,550 --> 00:41:09,800 people around it's not like the thing 1035 00:41:16,090 --> 00:41:12,560 landed in level land in Socorro it 1036 00:41:17,349 --> 00:41:16,100 landed in Socorro so you you there's 1037 00:41:21,220 --> 00:41:17,359 people around that you could you could 1038 00:41:22,450 --> 00:41:21,230 talk to about this but but so in level 1039 00:41:25,330 --> 00:41:22,460 and you know you can see you understand 1040 00:41:26,530 --> 00:41:25,340 why that didn't happen and and and of 1041 00:41:27,910 --> 00:41:26,540 course with level and the thing that 1042 00:41:29,740 --> 00:41:27,920 annoys me about that is the Air Force 1043 00:41:31,150 --> 00:41:29,750 said well there are only three witnesses 1044 00:41:32,740 --> 00:41:31,160 and nycap says well there were nine 1045 00:41:35,020 --> 00:41:32,750 witnesses near for saying well you guys 1046 00:41:36,609 --> 00:41:35,030 are lying about it and it turns out 1047 00:41:37,990 --> 00:41:36,619 based on the project Bluebook Files 1048 00:41:39,670 --> 00:41:38,000 alone and some of the other research 1049 00:41:42,160 --> 00:41:39,680 there were witnesses at 13 separate 1050 00:41:44,140 --> 00:41:42,170 locations so neither the Air Force no 1051 00:41:45,640 --> 00:41:44,150 deny camp had the number right which is 1052 00:41:47,140 --> 00:41:45,650 irrelevant I mean there was a lot of 1053 00:41:49,810 --> 00:41:47,150 witnesses you could have talked to and 1054 00:41:53,530 --> 00:41:49,820 in that investigation by the military 1055 00:41:55,120 --> 00:41:53,540 wasn't all that great and I cap didn't 1056 00:41:56,890 --> 00:41:55,130 do a great job but here in Socorro 1057 00:41:59,349 --> 00:41:56,900 you've got you've got the Lorenz ins 1058 00:42:01,270 --> 00:41:59,359 were right there you've got Ray Stanford 1059 00:42:03,670 --> 00:42:01,280 who was right there you've got holder 1060 00:42:06,340 --> 00:42:03,680 who probably gave up after the first 1061 00:42:08,470 --> 00:42:06,350 night or the first couple of days simply 1062 00:42:10,780 --> 00:42:08,480 because it's really not in his 1063 00:42:12,099 --> 00:42:10,790 wheelhouse you've got the FBI guy 1064 00:42:14,109 --> 00:42:12,109 telling everybody don't tell everybody 1065 00:42:15,670 --> 00:42:14,119 on the FBI but he's interested in the 1066 00:42:17,829 --> 00:42:15,680 case you've got the official air force 1067 00:42:20,290 --> 00:42:17,839 investigator and the consultant there 1068 00:42:23,920 --> 00:42:20,300 and nobody bothers to find those 1069 00:42:25,150 --> 00:42:23,930 witnesses it's just appalling to me but 1070 00:42:28,060 --> 00:42:25,160 you've got a lot of people who are on 1071 00:42:29,800 --> 00:42:28,070 the scene afterwards whose names we do 1072 00:42:32,109 --> 00:42:29,810 have and can attest well I saw the 1073 00:42:33,880 --> 00:42:32,119 depressions here I did this I did that 1074 00:42:37,630 --> 00:42:33,890 but you don't have the people saw the 1075 00:42:39,819 --> 00:42:37,640 damned object yeah so you talked earlier 1076 00:42:42,790 --> 00:42:39,829 about Rob Mercer who actually I had him 1077 00:42:45,550 --> 00:42:42,800 on the show great guy so Rob Mercer 1078 00:42:48,700 --> 00:42:45,560 finds these project Bluebook files he 1079 00:42:50,050 --> 00:42:48,710 gets even more than directly from one of 1080 00:42:54,520 --> 00:42:50,060 the people that was actually closing out 1081 00:42:56,589 --> 00:42:54,530 the project in 1969 did did any of those 1082 00:42:58,450 --> 00:42:56,599 files help you in this book to 1083 00:43:01,560 --> 00:42:58,460 understand a little more that wasn't 1084 00:43:04,599 --> 00:43:01,570 available before those files were found 1085 00:43:06,849 --> 00:43:04,609 what what happened is according to 1086 00:43:08,560 --> 00:43:06,859 Carbon Morano and I the reason I want to 1087 00:43:10,839 --> 00:43:08,570 talk to him was get the idea of what 1088 00:43:12,400 --> 00:43:10,849 this stuff was we've got the official 1089 00:43:14,200 --> 00:43:12,410 project Bluebook files and if you've got 1090 00:43:16,109 --> 00:43:14,210 the microfilm or you go to fold three 1091 00:43:18,970 --> 00:43:16,119 you can look at virtually the entire 1092 00:43:22,630 --> 00:43:18,980 Socorro official Socorro case I'm not 1093 00:43:24,520 --> 00:43:22,640 sure that the fold three has every piece 1094 00:43:26,470 --> 00:43:24,530 of the information it's it's it's in the 1095 00:43:28,450 --> 00:43:26,480 project Bluebook files on the 1096 00:43:30,550 --> 00:43:28,460 microphones and I happen to have that 1097 00:43:32,349 --> 00:43:30,560 microfilm or at least I had it until I 1098 00:43:34,390 --> 00:43:32,359 loaned it to van Maas I probably got a 1099 00:43:38,500 --> 00:43:34,400 Sindhi been boss and emails he sent me 1100 00:43:42,010 --> 00:43:38,510 my microphone back you guy but what 1101 00:43:43,480 --> 00:43:42,020 Morano had told me was that one of the 1102 00:43:45,069 --> 00:43:43,490 things that they did because these 1103 00:43:46,450 --> 00:43:45,079 things weren't the files weren't 1104 00:43:48,640 --> 00:43:46,460 classified if you go through the file 1105 00:43:50,440 --> 00:43:48,650 you see very few cases marked with any 1106 00:43:52,290 --> 00:43:50,450 kind of classification on it so they're 1107 00:43:57,069 --> 00:43:52,300 pretty much opened to the public and by 1108 00:43:58,450 --> 00:43:57,079 1964 or 1967 when Morano was there they 1109 00:43:59,559 --> 00:43:58,460 would get calls from reporters and 1110 00:44:00,880 --> 00:43:59,569 reporters would come in and they'd talk 1111 00:44:04,599 --> 00:44:00,890 to them what they had done was put 1112 00:44:08,170 --> 00:44:04,609 together sort of briefing packages on 1113 00:44:10,540 --> 00:44:08,180 various cases and what Morano had had 1114 00:44:12,040 --> 00:44:10,550 saved it had been in the desk drawers 1115 00:44:13,540 --> 00:44:12,050 what he would he told me was this was 1116 00:44:15,280 --> 00:44:13,550 these were files on the desk roars that 1117 00:44:17,800 --> 00:44:15,290 others had been created and he'd helped 1118 00:44:20,230 --> 00:44:17,810 create and they were using to brief the 1119 00:44:22,299 --> 00:44:20,240 the reporters and people like that who 1120 00:44:23,769 --> 00:44:22,309 came came through Project Blue Book 1121 00:44:25,779 --> 00:44:23,779 and these files were gonna be thrown 1122 00:44:27,009 --> 00:44:25,789 away he thought they should be saved he 1123 00:44:31,239 --> 00:44:27,019 thought maybe he would do something with 1124 00:44:32,799 --> 00:44:31,249 later he was going to read him and 1125 00:44:36,819 --> 00:44:32,809 reveal me never did which is why he gave 1126 00:44:38,949 --> 00:44:36,829 everything to Rob Mercer but a lot of 1127 00:44:41,949 --> 00:44:38,959 the stuff is the same the the point 1128 00:44:44,410 --> 00:44:41,959 where it really diverges is the shape of 1129 00:44:46,179 --> 00:44:44,420 the symbol that Lonnie Zamora saw in the 1130 00:44:48,130 --> 00:44:46,189 official files it's what I called the 1131 00:44:49,689 --> 00:44:48,140 umbrella symbol and it was an arc with 1132 00:44:51,549 --> 00:44:49,699 sort of an arrowhead underneath it with 1133 00:44:56,079 --> 00:44:51,559 a line down and Allah and then a 1134 00:45:01,749 --> 00:44:56,089 horizontal line across the bottom in the 1135 00:45:04,749 --> 00:45:01,759 file that Morano saved gave me Bob 1136 00:45:07,150 --> 00:45:04,759 Mercer or a Rob Mercer it was an 1137 00:45:09,999 --> 00:45:07,160 inverted V with three lines through it 1138 00:45:12,640 --> 00:45:10,009 and I know that Ben moss and Tony Angela 1139 00:45:18,449 --> 00:45:12,650 I think that's the real symbol I think 1140 00:45:21,429 --> 00:45:18,459 based on the way that information was 1141 00:45:23,410 --> 00:45:21,439 preserved is this was a description of 1142 00:45:26,769 --> 00:45:23,420 the symbol as it appeared in the 1143 00:45:28,719 --> 00:45:26,779 newspapers the bad one they gave out to 1144 00:45:31,900 --> 00:45:28,729 satisfy the press as opposed to the good 1145 00:45:35,229 --> 00:45:31,910 one that that Lonnie Zamora saw and I 1146 00:45:37,630 --> 00:45:35,239 know Bannon and Tony and I disagree on 1147 00:45:39,459 --> 00:45:37,640 that and it's one of those things where 1148 00:45:42,339 --> 00:45:39,469 we have to agree to disagree what I look 1149 00:45:45,370 --> 00:45:42,349 at is Lonnie said in the moments after 1150 00:45:47,259 --> 00:45:45,380 the craft took off before Chavez showed 1151 00:45:49,839 --> 00:45:47,269 up he drew the symbol on a scrap of 1152 00:45:51,489 --> 00:45:49,849 paper and the sign at Lonnie Zamora that 1153 00:45:52,229 --> 00:45:51,499 scrap of the paper was in the project 1154 00:45:54,699 --> 00:45:52,239 Bluebook files 1155 00:45:56,259 --> 00:45:54,709 Lonnie later on that evening drew the 1156 00:45:57,429 --> 00:45:56,269 craft would it look like in the landing 1157 00:45:59,589 --> 00:45:57,439 gear and all of that stuff I mean the 1158 00:46:02,019 --> 00:45:59,599 really crude drawings you know just made 1159 00:46:05,769 --> 00:46:02,029 me an oval with lines down kind of 1160 00:46:07,979 --> 00:46:05,779 showing the landing gear but he also 1161 00:46:10,870 --> 00:46:07,989 drew the symbol on it and he signed that 1162 00:46:13,569 --> 00:46:10,880 every one of the reports in there from 1163 00:46:16,660 --> 00:46:13,579 whether it's from Connor or Holden or 1164 00:46:18,969 --> 00:46:16,670 whomever that has a ility of 1165 00:46:21,729 --> 00:46:18,979 illustration of the symbol all have the 1166 00:46:24,279 --> 00:46:21,739 umbrella symbol in it which to me 1167 00:46:27,009 --> 00:46:24,289 suggests that's the correct symbol and 1168 00:46:29,799 --> 00:46:27,019 the inverted V with the three lines 1169 00:46:33,429 --> 00:46:29,809 through it is the symbol they gave out 1170 00:46:35,859 --> 00:46:33,439 even ray Stanford in in writing to dick 1171 00:46:37,450 --> 00:46:35,869 Hall in May of 1964 in a letter to 1172 00:46:39,099 --> 00:46:37,460 him says that's the correct symbol and 1173 00:46:40,660 --> 00:46:39,109 if you see the inverted D with with the 1174 00:46:44,430 --> 00:46:40,670 three line so that's the wrong one in 1175 00:46:47,289 --> 00:46:44,440 his book and and here you go ray the 1176 00:46:48,009 --> 00:46:47,299 Socorro saucer and a pentagram Pentagon 1177 00:46:49,630 --> 00:46:48,019 pantry 1178 00:46:53,349 --> 00:46:49,640 there you go ray I plugged your book 1179 00:46:55,170 --> 00:46:53,359 again for you has it reversed has it the 1180 00:46:57,609 --> 00:46:55,180 the umbrella symbol being the wrong one 1181 00:47:00,549 --> 00:46:57,619 so we've got that we've got that it 1182 00:47:02,620 --> 00:47:00,559 looks to me like the cards in the 1183 00:47:06,069 --> 00:47:02,630 unofficial file the one that Carmen 1184 00:47:08,829 --> 00:47:06,079 Murano saved was based on newspaper 1185 00:47:10,630 --> 00:47:08,839 reports and and there's two cards and I 1186 00:47:12,910 --> 00:47:10,640 think they're both basically the same 1187 00:47:14,470 --> 00:47:12,920 and one of them is kind of a sloppily 1188 00:47:16,809 --> 00:47:14,480 written card and the other one is a much 1189 00:47:21,660 --> 00:47:16,819 neater card to preserve the information 1190 00:47:23,559 --> 00:47:21,670 but officially it seems that the 1191 00:47:25,029 --> 00:47:23,569 documentation suggests it's the 1192 00:47:28,200 --> 00:47:25,039 umbrellas symbol is the official symbol 1193 00:47:31,480 --> 00:47:28,210 and is that a really important point 1194 00:47:33,849 --> 00:47:31,490 fifty years later not really has either 1195 00:47:35,890 --> 00:47:33,859 symbol showing up on another craft well 1196 00:47:37,779 --> 00:47:35,900 not really there's some things that have 1197 00:47:40,299 --> 00:47:37,789 shown up that are sort of similar but 1198 00:47:44,499 --> 00:47:40,309 not the same sort of thing so you know 1199 00:47:46,450 --> 00:47:44,509 it's a point of debate what I'm not sure 1200 00:47:47,380 --> 00:47:46,460 it's an important point of debate it's 1201 00:47:51,609 --> 00:47:47,390 just kind of one of those interesting 1202 00:47:54,039 --> 00:47:51,619 things can we solve this riddle in 2017 1203 00:47:57,819 --> 00:47:54,049 as opposed to what was going on in 1964 1204 00:48:00,430 --> 00:47:57,829 yeah well you know I'll just invite ray 1205 00:48:01,900 --> 00:48:00,440 ray if you are listening in you do you 1206 00:48:04,930 --> 00:48:01,910 don't have to call him but if you wanted 1207 00:48:07,329 --> 00:48:04,940 to call in feel free to call an invoice 1208 00:48:12,400 --> 00:48:07,339 your opinion of the symbol now one of 1209 00:48:14,890 --> 00:48:12,410 the questions about the symbol is and I 1210 00:48:18,630 --> 00:48:14,900 know the reason they asked Lonnie to 1211 00:48:20,710 --> 00:48:18,640 change it was you know for copycat 1212 00:48:22,960 --> 00:48:20,720 situations so someone could actually 1213 00:48:24,160 --> 00:48:22,970 identify it if they did see it but why 1214 00:48:26,410 --> 00:48:24,170 didn't they just plain-old 1215 00:48:29,410 --> 00:48:26,420 tell him not to talk about the symbol 1216 00:48:30,700 --> 00:48:29,420 they did oh they did they told they told 1217 00:48:32,979 --> 00:48:30,710 him not to talk about it I don't know 1218 00:48:35,049 --> 00:48:32,989 who invented the the the fake symbol 1219 00:48:37,150 --> 00:48:35,059 whichever one is fake I don't know who 1220 00:48:38,650 --> 00:48:37,160 invented it well if it was the Umbrella 1221 00:48:40,229 --> 00:48:38,660 symbol Lonnie's invented it because he 1222 00:48:42,549 --> 00:48:40,239 signed that thing a number of times 1223 00:48:44,359 --> 00:48:42,559 including the thing he drew that very 1224 00:48:46,249 --> 00:48:44,369 night as the thing took off 1225 00:48:48,859 --> 00:48:46,259 I don't know who invented the the 1226 00:48:50,150 --> 00:48:48,869 inverted V with the three lines I don't 1227 00:48:51,319 --> 00:48:50,160 know invented it but that was the one 1228 00:48:53,479 --> 00:48:51,329 that was put out and it appears in 1229 00:48:56,499 --> 00:48:53,489 newspapers around the country the Lorenz 1230 00:49:00,200 --> 00:48:56,509 ins in the April 1231 00:49:04,099 --> 00:49:00,210 that's our April not the May 1964 April 1232 00:49:07,219 --> 00:49:04,109 bulletins have the inverted have the 1233 00:49:09,229 --> 00:49:07,229 umbrella symbol in it so that's thing we 1234 00:49:11,930 --> 00:49:09,239 got out and that's the symbol that Rick 1235 00:49:14,299 --> 00:49:11,940 Baca put on the illustration that he'd 1236 00:49:17,359 --> 00:49:14,309 made he he didn't put it put the symbol 1237 00:49:19,190 --> 00:49:17,369 on it and when the illustration was 1238 00:49:22,759 --> 00:49:19,200 shown to the salt Lonnie Zamora back in 1239 00:49:25,009 --> 00:49:22,769 1964 he had it drawn on there I think 1240 00:49:26,779 --> 00:49:25,019 Rick Bacchus fact father actually drew 1241 00:49:28,249 --> 00:49:26,789 it on wrote Lonnie was sitting there 1242 00:49:30,079 --> 00:49:28,259 telling him what it's supposed to look 1243 00:49:31,849 --> 00:49:30,089 like if you see the illustration from 1244 00:49:33,200 --> 00:49:31,859 the newspaper the symbols not there if 1245 00:49:35,630 --> 00:49:33,210 you look at the illustration from the 1246 00:49:39,559 --> 00:49:35,640 Apple Bulletin the symbol is there I 1247 00:49:41,329 --> 00:49:39,569 have seen nothing in the official record 1248 00:49:44,089 --> 00:49:41,339 to suggest the inverted V with the 1249 00:49:45,739 --> 00:49:44,099 exception of a letter in the fish'll 1250 00:49:48,709 --> 00:49:45,749 project Bluebook files written by Hynek 1251 00:49:50,539 --> 00:49:48,719 in September of 1964 and he's got an 1252 00:49:52,910 --> 00:49:50,549 inverted V he's got a line over the top 1253 00:49:55,880 --> 00:49:52,920 of it meaning above the apex of the V 1254 00:49:59,509 --> 00:49:55,890 and he's got two lines between the legs 1255 00:50:02,660 --> 00:49:59,519 of the V so it's not really the inverted 1256 00:50:04,339 --> 00:50:02,670 V with the three lines through it it's a 1257 00:50:06,170 --> 00:50:04,349 representation of it and it's probably 1258 00:50:08,509 --> 00:50:06,180 what Hynek remembered somebody telling 1259 00:50:12,859 --> 00:50:08,519 him about there's also another document 1260 00:50:18,859 --> 00:50:12,869 that I got my hands on and Hynek was 1261 00:50:20,959 --> 00:50:18,869 being interviewed by I think Jenny's 1262 00:50:23,809 --> 00:50:20,969 Eichmann think of Johnny Zeidman 1263 00:50:25,099 --> 00:50:23,819 who was who was part of the Center for 1264 00:50:28,549 --> 00:50:25,109 UFO studies and that sort of thing but 1265 00:50:32,359 --> 00:50:28,559 back in in 1964 putting together a 1266 00:50:34,489 --> 00:50:32,369 document about the symbols and both 1267 00:50:36,170 --> 00:50:34,499 symbols are in that document but the way 1268 00:50:37,969 --> 00:50:36,180 the document is set up and the way the 1269 00:50:40,400 --> 00:50:37,979 things are written it it seemed to 1270 00:50:42,589 --> 00:50:40,410 indicate Hynek was advocating the the 1271 00:50:44,630 --> 00:50:42,599 umbrella symbol as opposed to the 1272 00:50:47,029 --> 00:50:44,640 inverted V in that but both symbols are 1273 00:50:48,650 --> 00:50:47,039 in his illustration are in his in the 1274 00:50:50,209 --> 00:50:48,660 document and one says it's what was 1275 00:50:54,709 --> 00:50:50,219 published in the newspaper so I think 1276 00:50:57,109 --> 00:50:54,719 Hynek in May talked about it that way in 1277 00:50:57,309 --> 00:50:57,119 September he got confused about the way 1278 00:51:17,799 --> 00:50:57,319 the 1279 00:51:19,660 --> 00:51:17,809 believe probably won't be seen by any 1280 00:51:21,729 --> 00:51:19,670 civilians and by the time civilians see 1281 00:51:23,769 --> 00:51:21,739 it it's not going to matter anymore so 1282 00:51:25,449 --> 00:51:23,779 there's no sense in them putting in the 1283 00:51:27,400 --> 00:51:25,459 inaccurate symbol that seems to me that 1284 00:51:30,489 --> 00:51:27,410 anybody who was putting a symbol into 1285 00:51:33,219 --> 00:51:30,499 their reports back to their higher 1286 00:51:35,469 --> 00:51:33,229 headquarters or back to project Bluebook 1287 00:51:37,689 --> 00:51:35,479 would have put the symbol as lonnie 1288 00:51:38,019 --> 00:51:37,699 described it in it and like I said in 1289 00:51:42,789 --> 00:51:38,029 Lonnie 1290 00:51:44,589 --> 00:51:42,799 little scrap of papers that he took that 1291 00:51:47,019 --> 00:51:44,599 that was in the project blue profiles 1292 00:51:51,099 --> 00:51:47,029 and he signed the illustrations that he 1293 00:51:53,620 --> 00:51:51,109 made for holder and burns on the night 1294 00:51:55,739 --> 00:51:53,630 of the event yeah I don't want to get 1295 00:51:58,599 --> 00:51:55,749 boring in case that guy's listening but 1296 00:52:03,819 --> 00:51:58,609 the she's not gonna listen anymore 1297 00:52:08,170 --> 00:52:03,829 because we're making fun of it well now 1298 00:52:10,660 --> 00:52:08,180 symbols our symbols are common I mean 1299 00:52:13,390 --> 00:52:10,670 you I can only think of a handful or 1300 00:52:15,069 --> 00:52:13,400 maybe the of one other craft that people 1301 00:52:20,859 --> 00:52:15,079 mentioned that there was a symbol or 1302 00:52:22,539 --> 00:52:20,869 symbols on but a new research if you go 1303 00:52:24,339 --> 00:52:22,549 back to Roswell there are symbols from 1304 00:52:25,449 --> 00:52:24,349 the i-beam that just right Marcel saw 1305 00:52:27,189 --> 00:52:25,459 but that would have been inside the 1306 00:52:29,439 --> 00:52:27,199 craft not not something outside the 1307 00:52:31,029 --> 00:52:29,449 craft you look at Kecksburg you've got 1308 00:52:34,150 --> 00:52:31,039 symbols on the outside of the craft 1309 00:52:35,739 --> 00:52:34,160 there you've got the uomo hoax but 1310 00:52:38,009 --> 00:52:35,749 there's a symbol on the craft there but 1311 00:52:41,579 --> 00:52:38,019 it's a hoax so it's kind of irrelevant 1312 00:52:46,900 --> 00:52:41,589 we have other samples of alien writing 1313 00:52:48,910 --> 00:52:46,910 Rendlesham forest well I was I I don't 1314 00:52:50,709 --> 00:52:48,920 remember if there's symbols on the craft 1315 00:52:54,089 --> 00:52:50,719 or it's something that came about later 1316 00:52:57,759 --> 00:52:54,099 no no the well Tennyson claimed he saw 1317 00:53:00,219 --> 00:52:57,769 sort of you know like Egyptian 1318 00:53:01,809 --> 00:53:00,229 hieroglyphics on the right I think but I 1319 00:53:04,180 --> 00:53:01,819 don't think he talked about that until 1320 00:53:06,039 --> 00:53:04,190 years after the sighting okay okay 1321 00:53:07,930 --> 00:53:06,049 which is not to say it's on inaccurate 1322 00:53:09,370 --> 00:53:07,940 it's just that he didn't talk about it I 1323 00:53:12,370 --> 00:53:09,380 was thinking 1324 00:53:14,380 --> 00:53:12,380 George George Reeves yeah Superman Wow 1325 00:53:19,690 --> 00:53:14,390 that's good one by the way just so you 1326 00:53:22,930 --> 00:53:19,700 know Superman is an illegal alien the 1327 00:53:24,880 --> 00:53:22,940 guy Reeves from Brooksville ok 1328 00:53:26,110 --> 00:53:24,890 supposedly saw it and took trips to 1329 00:53:27,430 --> 00:53:26,120 Venus and all that stuff he didn't 1330 00:53:28,750 --> 00:53:27,440 explain that why the ship didn't melt 1331 00:53:29,320 --> 00:53:28,760 when he got to Venus but that's another 1332 00:53:34,560 --> 00:53:29,330 argument 1333 00:53:37,720 --> 00:53:34,570 oh he he presented the Air Force two 1334 00:53:39,370 --> 00:53:37,730 bits of paper with with symbols on it 1335 00:53:42,310 --> 00:53:39,380 strange writing supposedly Venusian 1336 00:53:44,280 --> 00:53:42,320 writing I guess and the Air Force kind 1337 00:53:46,210 --> 00:53:44,290 of bungled the investigation there 1338 00:53:49,210 --> 00:53:46,220 probably because they didn't believe him 1339 00:53:51,760 --> 00:53:49,220 seeing the object on the ground but 1340 00:53:53,110 --> 00:53:51,770 there were symbols there they were 1341 00:53:57,220 --> 00:53:53,120 things and things like that there's not 1342 00:53:59,110 --> 00:53:57,230 a lot of there there two women and in 1343 00:54:00,640 --> 00:53:59,120 Texas who told Project Blue Book they'd 1344 00:54:03,220 --> 00:54:00,650 seen a UFO and they know it wasn't a UFO 1345 00:54:05,440 --> 00:54:03,230 because it said UFO on the sides perfect 1346 00:54:06,700 --> 00:54:05,450 yeah I think thinking that's probably 1347 00:54:10,030 --> 00:54:06,710 but but but you're right there's a 1348 00:54:11,680 --> 00:54:10,040 handful of sightings where there's some 1349 00:54:13,210 --> 00:54:11,690 kind of symbology on the craft and 1350 00:54:16,030 --> 00:54:13,220 there's another handful of sightings 1351 00:54:17,350 --> 00:54:16,040 where we see symbols and for Michael I 1352 00:54:19,810 --> 00:54:17,360 don't know why reviewing all this 1353 00:54:22,270 --> 00:54:19,820 attention in the abduction phenomenon 1354 00:54:24,760 --> 00:54:22,280 there's any number of cases where people 1355 00:54:25,750 --> 00:54:24,770 saw symbols not on necessarily on the 1356 00:54:30,150 --> 00:54:25,760 outside of the craft 1357 00:54:33,220 --> 00:54:30,160 yes Boas villas-boas from Brazil who is 1358 00:54:36,760 --> 00:54:33,230 the first one the first abduction to 1359 00:54:39,300 --> 00:54:36,770 have been reported in in UFO literature 1360 00:54:41,230 --> 00:54:39,310 I think saw symbols inside the craft 1361 00:54:43,480 --> 00:54:41,240 when he was there and I think other 1362 00:54:46,300 --> 00:54:43,490 other abductees have talked about that 1363 00:54:48,010 --> 00:54:46,310 sort of thing but symbology on the 1364 00:54:51,130 --> 00:54:48,020 outside we don't see it we don't see a 1365 00:54:54,120 --> 00:54:51,140 lot of that now there is you know there 1366 00:54:57,910 --> 00:54:54,130 is a school of thought that this was a 1367 00:55:00,370 --> 00:54:57,920 military experimental you know I'm sure 1368 00:55:03,220 --> 00:55:00,380 you've heard all that and I'm wondering 1369 00:55:04,480 --> 00:55:03,230 if that's what also when someone's 1370 00:55:07,780 --> 00:55:04,490 trying to debunk it they say yeah that 1371 00:55:12,220 --> 00:55:07,790 was you know that was a military private 1372 00:55:15,730 --> 00:55:12,230 company emblem there has been nobody 1373 00:55:18,700 --> 00:55:15,740 filed has found the exact emblem yet and 1374 00:55:20,080 --> 00:55:18,710 once again quintanilla was in New Mexico 1375 00:55:22,000 --> 00:55:20,090 looking at that and he had authorization 1376 00:55:23,170 --> 00:55:22,010 to look at the look into the black 1377 00:55:25,620 --> 00:55:23,180 projects 1378 00:55:30,040 --> 00:55:25,630 and had that explanation been available 1379 00:55:31,630 --> 00:55:30,050 he could have of expressed that in the 1380 00:55:35,020 --> 00:55:31,640 Bluebook files he could have created a 1381 00:55:38,020 --> 00:55:35,030 secret document with that with the 1382 00:55:39,760 --> 00:55:38,030 explanation on it to be filed with the 1383 00:55:40,810 --> 00:55:39,770 other classified materials with Blue 1384 00:55:42,400 --> 00:55:40,820 Book and there was some classified 1385 00:55:43,690 --> 00:55:42,410 materials that were part of Luba because 1386 00:55:45,550 --> 00:55:43,700 you go back and you look at the files 1387 00:55:47,980 --> 00:55:45,560 you can see where they classified and 1388 00:55:50,670 --> 00:55:47,990 they've downgraded them over the years 1389 00:55:53,470 --> 00:55:50,680 from from secret to confidential to 1390 00:55:55,150 --> 00:55:53,480 unclassified so there were classified 1391 00:55:56,950 --> 00:55:55,160 documents in the project Bluebook files 1392 00:55:59,140 --> 00:55:56,960 and so they had to keep keep track of 1393 00:56:02,260 --> 00:55:59,150 those classified materials so had there 1394 00:56:04,240 --> 00:56:02,270 been anything like that went Anela would 1395 00:56:07,900 --> 00:56:04,250 have known it in quintanilla would have 1396 00:56:11,520 --> 00:56:07,910 created a file on on that sort of thing 1397 00:56:13,780 --> 00:56:11,530 and when he wrote his memoirs if he if 1398 00:56:16,240 --> 00:56:13,790 it was it was far enough into the future 1399 00:56:20,500 --> 00:56:16,250 that anything that he would have seen in 1400 00:56:23,590 --> 00:56:20,510 64 probably no longer secret I mean you 1401 00:56:25,360 --> 00:56:23,600 know that stuff becomes obsolete after a 1402 00:56:27,130 --> 00:56:25,370 while I mean how many things we'll be 1403 00:56:29,050 --> 00:56:27,140 testing in 1964 would still be 1404 00:56:31,360 --> 00:56:29,060 classified because our technology is so 1405 00:56:34,330 --> 00:56:31,370 far beyond there where it was in 1964 1406 00:56:36,190 --> 00:56:34,340 but even so he could have mentioned in 1407 00:56:37,690 --> 00:56:36,200 his memoirs while I was able to find a 1408 00:56:39,760 --> 00:56:37,700 solution I can't talk about it because 1409 00:56:41,950 --> 00:56:39,770 it was classified but he didn't do that 1410 00:56:44,410 --> 00:56:41,960 he said you know I could not answer the 1411 00:56:46,600 --> 00:56:44,420 case I could not answer it and in saying 1412 00:56:49,360 --> 00:56:46,610 I found the solution but it's classified 1413 00:56:50,650 --> 00:56:49,370 is not a good solution but it's better 1414 00:56:53,980 --> 00:56:50,660 than saying well I had to mark it 1415 00:56:56,080 --> 00:56:53,990 unidentified so I don't think there's I 1416 00:56:59,290 --> 00:56:56,090 don't think there's anything that it was 1417 00:57:02,470 --> 00:56:59,300 in our inventory or going to be 1418 00:57:04,870 --> 00:57:02,480 enjoining the inventory in 1964 that 1419 00:57:08,440 --> 00:57:04,880 that would still be classified the 1420 00:57:11,170 --> 00:57:08,450 closest we could find and I think 1421 00:57:13,540 --> 00:57:11,180 there's a skeptic Society in New Mexico 1422 00:57:17,860 --> 00:57:13,550 that looked at the illustration as 1423 00:57:19,240 --> 00:57:17,870 created by Rick Baca and compared it to 1424 00:57:21,640 --> 00:57:19,250 some of the testing with the lunar 1425 00:57:24,070 --> 00:57:21,650 lander looks quite a bit alike what 1426 00:57:27,430 --> 00:57:24,080 Lonnie Zamora saw the problem is there 1427 00:57:29,440 --> 00:57:27,440 were no lunar landers in New Mexico that 1428 00:57:31,300 --> 00:57:29,450 could fly under their own power I think 1429 00:57:33,580 --> 00:57:31,310 that was being tested out on the west 1430 00:57:35,800 --> 00:57:33,590 coast there seems to be some of that 1431 00:57:39,820 --> 00:57:35,810 kind of stuff going on at 1432 00:57:43,360 --> 00:57:39,830 sans but the the länder part of it was 1433 00:57:47,410 --> 00:57:43,370 being lifted by helicopters and so I 1434 00:57:50,830 --> 00:57:47,420 can't see why Loni wouldn't have seen 1435 00:57:52,090 --> 00:57:50,840 the the helicopter yeah flying around 1436 00:57:54,100 --> 00:57:52,100 above it yeah 1437 00:57:59,040 --> 00:57:54,110 and there were a lot of people I know 1438 00:58:01,900 --> 00:57:59,050 Phil class was trying to do bus this so 1439 00:58:07,090 --> 00:58:01,910 then there was I can't remember his name 1440 00:58:10,030 --> 00:58:07,100 a professor at a mine engineering school 1441 00:58:12,040 --> 00:58:10,040 was saying that it was hoax created by 1442 00:58:15,280 --> 00:58:12,050 students but none of it makes any sense 1443 00:58:17,680 --> 00:58:15,290 although the hoax is the guy's name was 1444 00:58:19,600 --> 00:58:17,690 the guy's name was Colgate at the and 1445 00:58:21,520 --> 00:58:19,610 I'd always treated in New Mexico School 1446 00:58:23,380 --> 00:58:21,530 of Mines or whatever it is in Socorro 1447 00:58:24,640 --> 00:58:23,390 and they probably going to hate me 1448 00:58:29,230 --> 00:58:24,650 because I can never remember the name of 1449 00:58:31,990 --> 00:58:29,240 their school but he he said it was a 1450 00:58:33,970 --> 00:58:32,000 hoax he said under Linus Pauling and I 1451 00:58:35,860 --> 00:58:33,980 know Tony big alia who looked at that 1452 00:58:38,280 --> 00:58:35,870 well yeah I cover all of this The Hulk 1453 00:58:40,510 --> 00:58:38,290 scenarios in in the book at length 1454 00:58:42,790 --> 00:58:40,520 Tony Bengali was very impressed with 1455 00:58:44,080 --> 00:58:42,800 that because he is Linus Pauling and I'm 1456 00:58:45,790 --> 00:58:44,090 thinking yeah it's a letter to Pauling 1457 00:58:47,200 --> 00:58:45,800 so the fact Pauling's involved is 1458 00:58:50,500 --> 00:58:47,210 completely and totally irrelevant 1459 00:58:52,890 --> 00:58:50,510 Colgate said it was a student hoax but 1460 00:58:55,150 --> 00:58:52,900 we really don't have any information the 1461 00:58:56,320 --> 00:58:55,160 president of the university called a it 1462 00:58:57,730 --> 00:58:56,330 was the president of the University took 1463 00:59:01,870 --> 00:58:57,740 over for the guy who was there in April 1464 00:59:03,310 --> 00:59:01,880 1964 whom Hynek knew and Hynek went and 1465 00:59:05,530 --> 00:59:03,320 talked to him about this and had a bit 1466 00:59:09,570 --> 00:59:05,540 of student hoax I am pretty certain that 1467 00:59:12,130 --> 00:59:09,580 the guy would said yeah you know Alan 1468 00:59:16,270 --> 00:59:12,140 it's probably a hoax done by our 1469 00:59:18,070 --> 00:59:16,280 students but that didn't come up and I 1470 00:59:20,850 --> 00:59:18,080 think it heineken letters to Donald 1471 00:59:23,080 --> 00:59:20,860 Menzel the great debunker at Harvard 1472 00:59:24,760 --> 00:59:23,090 told him that he could find no evidence 1473 00:59:27,400 --> 00:59:24,770 of a hoax and he looked for evidence of 1474 00:59:29,320 --> 00:59:27,410 a hoax menzo was of the opinion it was a 1475 00:59:31,720 --> 00:59:29,330 hoax class was of the opinion was a 1476 00:59:36,030 --> 00:59:31,730 whole class originally said that it was 1477 00:59:38,200 --> 00:59:36,040 a conspiracy house get a conspiracy gone 1478 00:59:40,360 --> 00:59:38,210 everybody missed the relevance to that 1479 00:59:42,760 --> 00:59:40,370 didn't they it's this the debunkers now 1480 00:59:45,070 --> 00:59:42,770 who are engaging in the conspiracy not 1481 00:59:47,260 --> 00:59:45,080 us but well go we'll go on from there 1482 00:59:49,690 --> 00:59:47,270 anyway our class said it was conspiracy 1483 00:59:51,520 --> 00:59:49,700 between the mayor of Socorro and 1484 00:59:53,950 --> 00:59:51,530 Tamura and the idea was that the mayor 1485 00:59:56,260 --> 00:59:53,960 owned the land where the thing landed 1486 00:59:58,570 --> 00:59:56,270 and what he was going to do is create a 1487 01:00:01,030 --> 00:59:58,580 tourist attraction so his worthless 1488 01:00:03,190 --> 01:00:01,040 scrubland on the outskirts of Socorro 1489 01:00:06,670 --> 01:00:03,200 would become worth money and maybe build 1490 01:00:08,290 --> 01:00:06,680 a hotel or put up a hotdog stand or 1491 01:00:11,440 --> 01:00:08,300 something so tourists would come to see 1492 01:00:12,910 --> 01:00:11,450 the place where the UFO had landed but 1493 01:00:15,100 --> 01:00:12,920 the problem with that is the mayor 1494 01:00:21,010 --> 01:00:15,110 didn't own the land in 1964 never did 1495 01:00:23,910 --> 01:00:21,020 own the land and and the thing that 1496 01:00:27,190 --> 01:00:23,920 bothers me about that and that kind of 1497 01:00:29,080 --> 01:00:27,200 is something that I fight with my blog 1498 01:00:31,270 --> 01:00:29,090 postings I do called chasing footnotes 1499 01:00:32,470 --> 01:00:31,280 is you read somebody's book and they say 1500 01:00:34,510 --> 01:00:32,480 well I got this information from 1501 01:00:36,220 --> 01:00:34,520 so-and-so or they put it in a footnote 1502 01:00:38,290 --> 01:00:36,230 and I go to the footnote and he got it 1503 01:00:40,060 --> 01:00:38,300 from somebody else and I go to the next 1504 01:00:42,670 --> 01:00:40,070 place and the next place to try to find 1505 01:00:45,460 --> 01:00:42,680 the original source of it and and any 1506 01:00:47,530 --> 01:00:45,470 number of writers most skeptical and and 1507 01:00:49,540 --> 01:00:47,540 believers and I think of Jerry Clark you 1508 01:00:51,490 --> 01:00:49,550 know on that I mean a very Clark and 1509 01:00:53,410 --> 01:00:51,500 very careful researcher wrote that the 1510 01:00:54,730 --> 01:00:53,420 man the mayor own the land according to 1511 01:00:57,700 --> 01:00:54,740 fill class well it turns out it's not 1512 01:00:58,990 --> 01:00:57,710 true somebody in Socorro must have told 1513 01:01:00,460 --> 01:00:59,000 class that because I can't think of 1514 01:01:03,520 --> 01:01:00,470 class making that up 1515 01:01:05,920 --> 01:01:03,530 a year after the sighting a year after 1516 01:01:07,180 --> 01:01:05,930 the sighting the City Council in Socorro 1517 01:01:09,010 --> 01:01:07,190 thought well maybe we should make this 1518 01:01:11,470 --> 01:01:09,020 into a tourist attraction and get people 1519 01:01:13,390 --> 01:01:11,480 to stop here overnight and go out and 1520 01:01:15,550 --> 01:01:13,400 look at what a UFO land and we'll put up 1521 01:01:18,160 --> 01:01:15,560 a little money but they never did it the 1522 01:01:20,170 --> 01:01:18,170 real point is they thought of it a year 1523 01:01:22,330 --> 01:01:20,180 later it wasn't something that came 1524 01:01:24,280 --> 01:01:22,340 about he we got this UFO landing let's 1525 01:01:25,450 --> 01:01:24,290 build a tourist attraction it was a year 1526 01:01:28,180 --> 01:01:25,460 later said well maybe we can do 1527 01:01:28,660 --> 01:01:28,190 something with this so that that fell 1528 01:01:31,420 --> 01:01:28,670 apart 1529 01:01:36,520 --> 01:01:31,430 Tony big alia and Tony and I disagree 1530 01:01:38,830 --> 01:01:36,530 with that what he said or on his hoax 1531 01:01:41,250 --> 01:01:38,840 theory but as I say you know I gave Tony 1532 01:01:43,180 --> 01:01:41,260 I didn't give Tony I in in the book 1533 01:01:44,530 --> 01:01:43,190 encounters in the desert for those of 1534 01:01:47,380 --> 01:01:44,540 you and please go out and buy it you can 1535 01:01:50,500 --> 01:01:47,390 get it on Amazon right now and look this 1536 01:01:51,070 --> 01:01:50,510 stuff up and put a nice review up all 1537 01:01:56,110 --> 01:01:51,080 your at it 1538 01:01:58,840 --> 01:01:56,120 that's my plug for the book but but I 1539 01:02:00,970 --> 01:01:58,850 talked to Tony about this at length and 1540 01:02:03,099 --> 01:02:00,980 put Tony's 1541 01:02:06,339 --> 01:02:03,109 opinions in the book but also point out 1542 01:02:08,829 --> 01:02:06,349 the problems with the idea that it was a 1543 01:02:10,210 --> 01:02:08,839 was a student hoax one of which is there 1544 01:02:13,060 --> 01:02:10,220 was no evidence on the scene of the 1545 01:02:15,400 --> 01:02:13,070 student to hoax how did they get out of 1546 01:02:16,750 --> 01:02:15,410 the area without Lani Xing seeing them 1547 01:02:19,120 --> 01:02:16,760 because they had to get rid of the thing 1548 01:02:20,829 --> 01:02:19,130 because it landed Lani said it took off 1549 01:02:23,589 --> 01:02:20,839 of work so where were the students how 1550 01:02:26,109 --> 01:02:23,599 did they get out of the area and why was 1551 01:02:29,010 --> 01:02:26,119 there no evidence from their vehicles in 1552 01:02:32,109 --> 01:02:29,020 the area or their footprints in the area 1553 01:02:34,060 --> 01:02:32,119 there just really was nothing there to 1554 01:02:34,780 --> 01:02:34,070 suggest that anybody was participating 1555 01:02:37,349 --> 01:02:34,790 in a hoax 1556 01:02:40,870 --> 01:02:37,359 am I getting this confused with another 1557 01:02:43,480 --> 01:02:40,880 sighting as far as a purported hoax 1558 01:02:46,450 --> 01:02:43,490 about a movie screen or was that also 1559 01:02:48,370 --> 01:02:46,460 Sakura no that's that's a coral that's 1560 01:02:51,460 --> 01:02:48,380 somewhere else yeah that's somewhere 1561 01:02:53,859 --> 01:02:51,470 else yep so yeah those are all those are 1562 01:02:56,140 --> 01:02:53,869 all questions now we're going in to the 1563 01:02:58,030 --> 01:02:56,150 second hour with Kevin Randall if anyone 1564 01:03:01,569 --> 01:02:58,040 who would like to call in the phone 1565 01:03:04,359 --> 01:03:01,579 number is six oh three nine six seven 1566 01:03:06,130 --> 01:03:04,369 four OH three oh and we're going to be 1567 01:03:08,290 --> 01:03:06,140 talking about the Socorro case so if you 1568 01:03:10,839 --> 01:03:08,300 have any questions or comments about the 1569 01:03:13,329 --> 01:03:10,849 Socorro case please keep it to that if 1570 01:03:16,990 --> 01:03:13,339 you're calling in again that's six oh 1571 01:03:19,660 --> 01:03:17,000 three nine six seven four OH three oh 1572 01:03:22,870 --> 01:03:19,670 and I'll start to look at the questions 1573 01:03:26,920 --> 01:03:22,880 in the chat room as they come up so what 1574 01:03:28,210 --> 01:03:26,930 about as time goes on do you think as I 1575 01:03:30,190 --> 01:03:28,220 mentioned in the beginning we have a 1576 01:03:32,339 --> 01:03:30,200 call we have a call coming in right now 1577 01:03:38,160 --> 01:03:32,349 already all right yes 1578 01:03:43,839 --> 01:03:38,170 I think it is right is it ray hello 1579 01:03:46,540 --> 01:03:43,849 hello hello hey is it ray Stanford yes 1580 01:03:48,550 --> 01:03:46,550 it is raised answer how long I said that 1581 01:03:50,740 --> 01:03:48,560 before I said that before he even 1582 01:03:57,309 --> 01:03:50,750 answered the phone hi ray hey he's 1583 01:04:01,000 --> 01:03:57,319 psychic or psycho one of the two okay so 1584 01:04:03,010 --> 01:04:01,010 ray what do you have for oh yeah I 1585 01:04:05,109 --> 01:04:03,020 wanted to wait till after them the 1586 01:04:07,420 --> 01:04:05,119 second hour that you said in the patio 1587 01:04:09,940 --> 01:04:07,430 like calls in this in the second hour I 1588 01:04:14,180 --> 01:04:09,950 wanted to comment on several things the 1589 01:04:16,640 --> 01:04:14,190 first place I don't find at all that 1590 01:04:20,600 --> 01:04:16,650 Kevin's interpretation of the notes that 1591 01:04:23,240 --> 01:04:20,610 a Mercer revealed that had had purchased 1592 01:04:25,160 --> 01:04:23,250 it that these were from things out the 1593 01:04:27,260 --> 01:04:25,170 newspaper it's impossible 1594 01:04:29,330 --> 01:04:27,270 the reason is those let's take the note 1595 01:04:32,720 --> 01:04:29,340 the first place there's one of the notes 1596 01:04:37,340 --> 01:04:32,730 that is hastily written and then it's 1597 01:04:40,610 --> 01:04:37,350 been rewritten in nice neat printing and 1598 01:04:42,110 --> 01:04:40,620 let me tell you what's in that note now 1599 01:04:44,570 --> 01:04:42,120 that the bottom of that note where it's 1600 01:04:48,050 --> 01:04:44,580 neatly printed it is written 1601 01:04:51,590 --> 01:04:48,060 one two three four lines below dr. Hynek 1602 01:04:54,740 --> 01:04:51,600 called at 2:00 at 23:05 they'd be 11:05 1603 01:04:57,920 --> 01:04:54,750 in the night last night on his way to 1604 01:05:00,110 --> 01:04:57,930 Chicago okay let's look at the content 1605 01:05:02,600 --> 01:05:00,120 of the note above it says sergeant 1606 01:05:06,050 --> 01:05:02,610 Chavez says that the Sakura policeman 1607 01:05:09,200 --> 01:05:06,060 had told him that the sighting had red 1608 01:05:11,390 --> 01:05:09,210 markings on his silver side now this is 1609 01:05:13,970 --> 01:05:11,400 very important Chavez said the officer 1610 01:05:16,850 --> 01:05:13,980 told him that the design was an inverted 1611 01:05:19,280 --> 01:05:16,860 V with three crossings on it but that 1612 01:05:22,400 --> 01:05:19,290 the Air Force had told him not to 1613 01:05:24,100 --> 01:05:22,410 discuss the markings well this could not 1614 01:05:27,560 --> 01:05:24,110 have come out of the paper because 1615 01:05:29,450 --> 01:05:27,570 Chavez did not and would not talk to the 1616 01:05:32,300 --> 01:05:29,460 papers or to anyone in the media about 1617 01:05:33,670 --> 01:05:32,310 this I did want to collect correct a 1618 01:05:36,350 --> 01:05:33,680 statement that I think was merely a Mis 1619 01:05:38,330 --> 01:05:36,360 statement that Kevin I don't think you 1620 01:05:40,670 --> 01:05:38,340 intended to say it that way but you said 1621 01:05:42,800 --> 01:05:40,680 something that indicated that that's the 1622 01:05:45,680 --> 01:05:42,810 more also along with Chavez believe this 1623 01:05:50,690 --> 01:05:45,690 was a black project correct no he never 1624 01:05:53,690 --> 01:05:50,700 did and Chavez did for sure but Chavez 1625 01:05:56,750 --> 01:05:53,700 would not talk to anybody about this 1626 01:05:59,090 --> 01:05:56,760 thing except that people that were 1627 01:06:02,090 --> 01:05:59,100 officially there from the government he 1628 01:06:04,730 --> 01:06:02,100 talked to Hynek this is in my opinion 1629 01:06:08,470 --> 01:06:04,740 clearly and refers to that the call from 1630 01:06:12,440 --> 01:06:08,480 Hynek a handwritten note on hynix 1631 01:06:14,870 --> 01:06:12,450 statements on the telephone when we have 1632 01:06:18,290 --> 01:06:14,880 Shalvis talking about what the similar 1633 01:06:21,770 --> 01:06:18,300 side impossible the man never ever would 1634 01:06:23,740 --> 01:06:21,780 have done this and I know this a lot of 1635 01:06:27,480 --> 01:06:23,750 personal encounters with Sam Chavez and 1636 01:06:30,990 --> 01:06:27,490 so it had to have come from 1637 01:06:32,760 --> 01:06:31,000 Hynek the only person in fact I believe 1638 01:06:36,960 --> 01:06:32,770 who Shalvis would have talked to at all 1639 01:06:39,059 --> 01:06:36,970 about this at that time period was was 1640 01:06:42,000 --> 01:06:39,069 Hynek himself and Shalvis talked to 1641 01:06:45,599 --> 01:06:42,010 Hynek even before he talked to Simona 1642 01:06:49,620 --> 01:06:45,609 and by the way no ivory I arrived in 1643 01:06:51,480 --> 01:06:49,630 cigar on Monday night and and then it 1644 01:06:55,410 --> 01:06:51,490 was Tuesday that I was at the site with 1645 01:06:57,960 --> 01:06:55,420 Shalvis let me correct that too I had 1646 01:06:59,460 --> 01:06:57,970 gone I was gonna say ray that I was 1647 01:07:04,170 --> 01:06:59,470 trying to remember exactly when you had 1648 01:07:06,089 --> 01:07:04,180 arrived in in Socorro so wow yeah that 1649 01:07:09,420 --> 01:07:06,099 that's not a problem there okay okay 1650 01:07:11,250 --> 01:07:09,430 well it is from the standpoint of how 1651 01:07:13,140 --> 01:07:11,260 fresh the site was when we got anyway 1652 01:07:18,150 --> 01:07:13,150 was Monday which was it was on Friday 1653 01:07:21,170 --> 01:07:18,160 night but in any case regarding the 1654 01:07:23,940 --> 01:07:21,180 question of the height of the arguments 1655 01:07:25,620 --> 01:07:23,950 there was one thing by the way I want to 1656 01:07:29,579 --> 01:07:25,630 tell people I recommend they read your 1657 01:07:30,930 --> 01:07:29,589 book I I really do because I think 1658 01:07:32,250 --> 01:07:30,940 there's some very good and important 1659 01:07:36,089 --> 01:07:32,260 things pointed out including all is 1660 01:07:41,120 --> 01:07:36,099 material about the the notes that that 1661 01:07:43,440 --> 01:07:41,130 were obtained from Mercer that had been 1662 01:07:45,990 --> 01:07:43,450 thankfully but but not officially in the 1663 01:07:48,780 --> 01:07:46,000 file list and the National Archive but 1664 01:07:50,370 --> 01:07:48,790 there are I wish in a way that we'd had 1665 01:07:52,440 --> 01:07:50,380 a chance to sit down before you with the 1666 01:07:55,319 --> 01:07:52,450 book and go over some things for me as I 1667 01:07:56,910 --> 01:07:55,329 think we that more things could have 1668 01:08:01,079 --> 01:07:56,920 been after the one thing that did bother 1669 01:08:04,020 --> 01:08:01,089 me and it's right on page 21 and it you 1670 01:08:08,069 --> 01:08:04,030 state that the Morris said that he saw 1671 01:08:11,010 --> 01:08:08,079 people and and he never used the term 1672 01:08:15,630 --> 01:08:11,020 people I caught that and it was 1673 01:08:17,220 --> 01:08:15,640 interesting I he kind of well opened up 1674 01:08:19,499 --> 01:08:17,230 on this let's say a hundred and twenty 1675 01:08:23,610 --> 01:08:19,509 four days later when I returned from 1676 01:08:26,729 --> 01:08:23,620 that episode back in at the headquarters 1677 01:08:28,650 --> 01:08:26,739 of the National had noise and pigments 1678 01:08:30,450 --> 01:08:28,660 not the headquarter story but but the 1679 01:08:32,309 --> 01:08:30,460 the Goddard Space Flight Center and we 1680 01:08:33,870 --> 01:08:32,319 came back to there to talk to Lonnie 1681 01:08:36,419 --> 01:08:33,880 tell him what had happened back there 1682 01:08:40,979 --> 01:08:36,429 about the metallic evidence and Lonnie 1683 01:08:43,259 --> 01:08:40,989 kind of opened up and he indicated that 1684 01:08:45,930 --> 01:08:43,269 that it had bothered him the small size 1685 01:08:47,729 --> 01:08:45,940 now when we talk a small size you not 1686 01:08:49,620 --> 01:08:47,739 only refer to him as papal which people 1687 01:08:51,089 --> 01:08:49,630 which is inaccurate because the more I 1688 01:08:53,729 --> 01:08:51,099 never said it he was careful to say 1689 01:08:55,589 --> 01:08:53,739 figures but him another thing important 1690 01:09:00,390 --> 01:08:55,599 is that you mentioned that that he said 1691 01:09:04,259 --> 01:09:00,400 10 to 12 feet he did not he years old 1692 01:09:06,239 --> 01:09:04,269 oh I'm sorry 12 minute yes 10 to 12 1693 01:09:09,329 --> 01:09:06,249 years old thanks Pete would make them 1694 01:09:10,640 --> 01:09:09,339 giants right yeah sure would he didn't 1695 01:09:13,200 --> 01:09:10,650 definitely describe them but he said 1696 01:09:16,309 --> 01:09:13,210 what he actually said and here's how it 1697 01:09:18,569 --> 01:09:16,319 happened we were standing the site and 1698 01:09:20,399 --> 01:09:18,579 honey was standing there just three 1699 01:09:22,319 --> 01:09:20,409 people made Zamora was about the same 1700 01:09:24,209 --> 01:09:22,329 distance away from me and there was a 1701 01:09:26,309 --> 01:09:24,219 Kris or Bush to our left that's the 1702 01:09:29,309 --> 01:09:26,319 crystal bush it was beside the northwest 1703 01:09:31,739 --> 01:09:29,319 landing gear imprint and when I asked 1704 01:09:35,279 --> 01:09:31,749 some more about ohana cast one of us 1705 01:09:38,910 --> 01:09:35,289 asked him about the figures that he had 1706 01:09:41,910 --> 01:09:38,920 just mentioned he said and he was very 1707 01:09:44,700 --> 01:09:41,920 clear on this he reached out and touched 1708 01:09:47,489 --> 01:09:44,710 a limb that was sticking out started to 1709 01:09:49,649 --> 01:09:47,499 the north to the the southeast off the 1710 01:09:51,569 --> 01:09:49,659 Kris out Bush and it stuck out 1711 01:09:54,689 --> 01:09:51,579 distinctly from the others he put his 1712 01:09:58,049 --> 01:09:54,699 hand on it and he said I know that the 1713 01:10:02,790 --> 01:09:58,059 head of the one figure came just below 1714 01:10:05,600 --> 01:10:02,800 this limb he said so it was it looked 1715 01:10:08,339 --> 01:10:05,610 about the size of a ten year old kid and 1716 01:10:10,739 --> 01:10:08,349 he didn't say to Everly said ten and 1717 01:10:15,209 --> 01:10:10,749 when you took I went out afterwards and 1718 01:10:18,779 --> 01:10:15,219 measured the height of that and indeed 1719 01:10:20,970 --> 01:10:18,789 he was quite accurate it could not he 1720 01:10:23,310 --> 01:10:20,980 could not have been this size of any 1721 01:10:25,410 --> 01:10:23,320 typical to ever oh I mean this was about 1722 01:10:30,029 --> 01:10:25,420 the size of a fairly small ten-year-old 1723 01:10:32,390 --> 01:10:30,039 kid and so I think we ought to consider 1724 01:10:35,160 --> 01:10:32,400 that because the more had then said I 1725 01:10:38,220 --> 01:10:35,170 wonder and 24 days later when Rebecca 1726 01:10:40,979 --> 01:10:38,230 and Sakura that that he had been 1727 01:10:44,549 --> 01:10:40,989 troubled by the smallness and then he 1728 01:10:47,910 --> 01:10:44,559 went into the the thing that when the 1729 01:10:50,810 --> 01:10:47,920 the FBI agent burns barns have everyone 1730 01:10:53,370 --> 01:10:50,820 to pronounce it had suggested he not 1731 01:10:54,960 --> 01:10:53,380 described this and and you could be 1732 01:10:56,910 --> 01:10:54,970 right about the motivation but I have 1733 01:10:58,470 --> 01:10:56,920 different interpretation yes you felt 1734 01:11:01,440 --> 01:10:58,480 and this it could be right that he 1735 01:11:04,800 --> 01:11:01,450 didn't want to make let Lani make 1736 01:11:08,370 --> 01:11:04,810 himself look silly but the the truth 1737 01:11:11,690 --> 01:11:08,380 matter is that Lani felt differently he 1738 01:11:16,230 --> 01:11:11,700 said at that time that he was concerned 1739 01:11:20,250 --> 01:11:16,240 when he said it to him that it's almost 1740 01:11:22,860 --> 01:11:20,260 as if his saying that might devote 1741 01:11:24,930 --> 01:11:22,870 something that maybe somebody in the 1742 01:11:29,520 --> 01:11:24,940 government didn't want him talking about 1743 01:11:32,670 --> 01:11:29,530 and so he left me with the impression 1744 01:11:35,340 --> 01:11:32,680 that this had stuck in his mind and it 1745 01:11:38,910 --> 01:11:35,350 could be explained why he never used the 1746 01:11:41,880 --> 01:11:38,920 term people but figures this could 1747 01:11:43,560 --> 01:11:41,890 indicate good objectivity let me 1748 01:11:44,760 --> 01:11:43,570 interrupt because there's a couple of 1749 01:11:46,290 --> 01:11:44,770 points here that I think think may be 1750 01:11:49,070 --> 01:11:46,300 crucial is number one the little runs 1751 01:11:52,140 --> 01:11:49,080 ins talked to him on talked to burns and 1752 01:11:54,540 --> 01:11:52,150 holder on Sunday and in their 1753 01:11:57,810 --> 01:11:54,550 conversation with the two of them it was 1754 01:12:00,620 --> 01:11:57,820 Burns who told the lorenz ins that he 1755 01:12:04,530 --> 01:12:00,630 had suggested not talking about the the 1756 01:12:06,420 --> 01:12:04,540 people because of of the reaction of it 1757 01:12:08,220 --> 01:12:06,430 but the interesting thing is he would 1758 01:12:09,900 --> 01:12:08,230 not describe the symbol to them directly 1759 01:12:11,160 --> 01:12:09,910 but he would describe the people to him 1760 01:12:13,230 --> 01:12:11,170 because choral said bought stories 1761 01:12:15,540 --> 01:12:13,240 already in the newspaper I have a report 1762 01:12:22,050 --> 01:12:15,550 here from from the United States Air 1763 01:12:25,950 --> 01:12:22,060 Force written on May 13th and he says at 1764 01:12:30,480 --> 01:12:25,960 that at this point at this point he saw 1765 01:12:32,250 --> 01:12:30,490 two people in white coveralls were you 1766 01:12:34,560 --> 01:12:32,260 reading from I'm reading from a project 1767 01:12:35,790 --> 01:12:34,570 Bluebook file okay well that is not 1768 01:12:37,530 --> 01:12:35,800 active this is not an accurate 1769 01:12:41,340 --> 01:12:37,540 transcription of what Zamora said 1770 01:12:42,840 --> 01:12:41,350 because he I am sir I don't care if it's 1771 01:12:48,030 --> 01:12:42,850 in the blue but that was written 1772 01:12:53,010 --> 01:12:48,040 probably by holder right no I think it 1773 01:12:54,300 --> 01:12:53,020 was written by Moody I think was well 1774 01:12:55,350 --> 01:12:54,310 even then that makes it even more 1775 01:12:57,360 --> 01:12:55,360 suspicious 1776 01:12:59,010 --> 01:12:57,370 that the term people would be thrown in 1777 01:13:03,000 --> 01:12:59,020 there if Moody wrote it Moody was 1778 01:13:06,420 --> 01:13:03,010 rabidly I know well yes you're right 1779 01:13:08,340 --> 01:13:06,430 moody was rapidly anti so sir and right 1780 01:13:10,290 --> 01:13:08,350 if we could get out of 1781 01:13:12,240 --> 01:13:10,300 you can get out of a place to happen and 1782 01:13:13,920 --> 01:13:12,250 you see this conventionalized is it but 1783 01:13:15,390 --> 01:13:13,930 by doing in the term people people will 1784 01:13:17,910 --> 01:13:15,400 not notice that it wasn't what some more 1785 01:13:19,980 --> 01:13:17,920 I said but what moody said and that then 1786 01:13:22,440 --> 01:13:19,990 throws it into the realm of well he must 1787 01:13:23,970 --> 01:13:22,450 have seen something terrestrial but 1788 01:13:25,020 --> 01:13:23,980 there's there something else about this 1789 01:13:27,120 --> 01:13:25,030 case and I don't know why it's not 1790 01:13:30,060 --> 01:13:27,130 mentioned in your books but I have been 1791 01:13:31,500 --> 01:13:30,070 able to find and this is not mentioned 1792 01:13:35,600 --> 01:13:31,510 in the blue pipe island this makes me 1793 01:13:38,550 --> 01:13:35,610 suspicious that the blue book file is is 1794 01:13:42,600 --> 01:13:38,560 let's say it's tilted in a direction 1795 01:13:45,060 --> 01:13:42,610 that might make people not take this as 1796 01:13:46,860 --> 01:13:45,070 being something extraordinary let me let 1797 01:13:49,830 --> 01:13:46,870 me get this why is the following not 1798 01:13:52,860 --> 01:13:49,840 described when we walked up from down in 1799 01:13:57,330 --> 01:13:52,870 the ravine at the landing site Hynek and 1800 01:14:02,820 --> 01:13:57,340 myself and Zamora and Chavez on Tuesday 1801 01:14:04,500 --> 01:14:02,830 they I think 29th of April Zamora had 1802 01:14:06,210 --> 01:14:04,510 been brought out there in sergeant 1803 01:14:09,680 --> 01:14:06,220 Chavez car it wasn't his written police 1804 01:14:12,510 --> 01:14:09,690 car but Hynek asked him to reenact 1805 01:14:13,950 --> 01:14:12,520 because he had parked the car Chavez 1806 01:14:17,940 --> 01:14:13,960 said he parked words amor told him he 1807 01:14:19,770 --> 01:14:17,950 parked his car he asked him to then go 1808 01:14:22,560 --> 01:14:19,780 through the whole thing from the moment 1809 01:14:25,050 --> 01:14:22,570 he was in the car and Shalvis I'm sorry 1810 01:14:27,960 --> 01:14:25,060 similar I'm opens door sat down in the 1811 01:14:31,380 --> 01:14:27,970 seat went through the thing with the the 1812 01:14:35,040 --> 01:14:31,390 radio device and then he stepped out and 1813 01:14:36,810 --> 01:14:35,050 he they took a few steps you can read my 1814 01:14:38,460 --> 01:14:36,820 book how many of the work he stepped 1815 01:14:41,040 --> 01:14:38,470 down to the ravine and it's this point 1816 01:14:43,290 --> 01:14:41,050 that is and he was very close to the 1817 01:14:46,380 --> 01:14:43,300 object this is when the terrible roar 1818 01:14:48,960 --> 01:14:46,390 and flame began and he thought it as you 1819 01:14:50,700 --> 01:14:48,970 said might be an explosion but here's 1820 01:14:52,410 --> 01:14:50,710 the part that's that I sort I know is 1821 01:14:54,570 --> 01:14:52,420 not your book it's not in the blue book 1822 01:14:56,670 --> 01:14:54,580 file but it was there and Hynek was 1823 01:14:58,560 --> 01:14:56,680 there and witnesses he threw himself 1824 01:15:00,570 --> 01:14:58,570 this is before he bumped into the back 1825 01:15:02,880 --> 01:15:00,580 the car lost his glasses he had his 1826 01:15:04,950 --> 01:15:02,890 glasses on he said he and he used the 1827 01:15:07,200 --> 01:15:04,960 word prone position he threw himself in 1828 01:15:09,960 --> 01:15:07,210 the prone position he showed us exactly 1829 01:15:11,970 --> 01:15:09,970 how he did it in my book the position of 1830 01:15:13,650 --> 01:15:11,980 the body is exactly where Zamora through 1831 01:15:16,470 --> 01:15:13,660 his body and demonstrating this to me 1832 01:15:20,580 --> 01:15:16,480 and Hynek after Lani got up Alan said 1833 01:15:22,300 --> 01:15:20,590 ray would you please take pace it off 1834 01:15:23,890 --> 01:15:22,310 down there to the middle of work 1835 01:15:26,440 --> 01:15:23,900 the burn was beside the burned bush 1836 01:15:27,160 --> 01:15:26,450 would you please paste that off and I 1837 01:15:32,350 --> 01:15:27,170 paste it off 1838 01:15:35,920 --> 01:15:32,360 and it was about 35 feet he was that 1839 01:15:37,570 --> 01:15:35,930 close interestingly in the Bluebook file 1840 01:15:40,270 --> 01:15:37,580 even though Hynek was supposedly there 1841 01:15:42,940 --> 01:15:40,280 their investigator there on this case 1842 01:15:45,970 --> 01:15:42,950 there is no mention of this fact 1843 01:15:49,660 --> 01:15:45,980 in other words Zamora got within 35 feet 1844 01:15:51,760 --> 01:15:49,670 of this device whatever was and I think 1845 01:15:54,220 --> 01:15:51,770 that's quite important and he did in 1846 01:15:56,470 --> 01:15:54,230 fact all the time have his glasses on so 1847 01:15:59,310 --> 01:15:56,480 for what is worth that is missing from 1848 01:16:03,610 --> 01:15:59,320 the Bluebook file and I don't find it 1849 01:16:05,110 --> 01:16:03,620 and I find it also suspicious that in 1850 01:16:07,600 --> 01:16:05,120 the blue before I went to the rigid 1851 01:16:09,040 --> 01:16:07,610 archive and because I had been involved 1852 01:16:10,570 --> 01:16:09,050 to the side has proven by the 1853 01:16:13,240 --> 01:16:10,580 photographs in the public file of me 1854 01:16:16,630 --> 01:16:13,250 there that was showed me besides Chavez 1855 01:16:18,970 --> 01:16:16,640 and and similar taken by honey they they 1856 01:16:24,730 --> 01:16:18,980 canceled on this for 45 minutes and then 1857 01:16:27,400 --> 01:16:24,740 told told me and that in James Fox that 1858 01:16:30,700 --> 01:16:27,410 we could have access to what people 1859 01:16:33,040 --> 01:16:30,710 don't normally see they see there 1860 01:16:35,610 --> 01:16:33,050 there's a microfiche kind of a film 1861 01:16:38,260 --> 01:16:35,620 thing as you know but there's also bad 1862 01:16:40,720 --> 01:16:38,270 black-and-white copies too that you can 1863 01:16:42,610 --> 01:16:40,730 get we got to see every single document 1864 01:16:45,130 --> 01:16:42,620 was original including the burn paper 1865 01:16:47,920 --> 01:16:45,140 said Hynek and and I had helped him 1866 01:16:50,440 --> 01:16:47,930 collect and label and it was like I was 1867 01:16:52,980 --> 01:16:50,450 working in to back sixty years ago or 1868 01:16:55,720 --> 01:16:52,990 nearly well 58 to 59 years ago then and 1869 01:17:00,220 --> 01:16:55,730 but but here's the thing 1870 01:17:02,440 --> 01:17:00,230 it when we when we see this this file 1871 01:17:03,790 --> 01:17:02,450 and we look at the drawing that was 1872 01:17:06,730 --> 01:17:03,800 supposedly and you referred to it as 1873 01:17:09,600 --> 01:17:06,740 having been made by Zamora right after 1874 01:17:13,330 --> 01:17:09,610 the event as Chavez had just arrived I 1875 01:17:17,110 --> 01:17:13,340 don't find it credible I have good color 1876 01:17:19,660 --> 01:17:17,120 picture high-resolution taken that we 1877 01:17:21,940 --> 01:17:19,670 took there of that file and I have the 1878 01:17:24,070 --> 01:17:21,950 back side of it now if you look at that 1879 01:17:27,460 --> 01:17:24,080 file it bothered me immediately that 1880 01:17:28,930 --> 01:17:27,470 picture what you're seeing is a parabola 1881 01:17:30,790 --> 01:17:28,940 I'd have to analyze it is either a 1882 01:17:33,700 --> 01:17:30,800 parabola or hyperbola 1883 01:17:35,649 --> 01:17:33,710 it is neatly drawn in a way that was not 1884 01:17:37,300 --> 01:17:35,659 at all characteristics of 1885 01:17:39,189 --> 01:17:37,310 any of the drawings you see in the blue 1886 01:17:40,510 --> 01:17:39,199 blouse are in the drawing that Zamora 1887 01:17:44,590 --> 01:17:40,520 made to me with the Umbrella thing 1888 01:17:47,200 --> 01:17:44,600 claiming it was what he saw and it is a 1889 01:17:49,450 --> 01:17:47,210 different hand a person with a different 1890 01:17:52,270 --> 01:17:49,460 kind of mindset that could draw this 1891 01:17:56,320 --> 01:17:52,280 parabola and my personal opinion is that 1892 01:17:59,080 --> 01:17:56,330 it was that it was holder that drew this 1893 01:18:02,490 --> 01:17:59,090 he was a very intelligent man but when 1894 01:18:06,010 --> 01:18:02,500 he went into it became a pharmacist 1895 01:18:08,379 --> 01:18:06,020 after he was retired from the Army and I 1896 01:18:10,600 --> 01:18:08,389 believe the holder drew it and that he 1897 01:18:12,790 --> 01:18:10,610 was the type of person that had the kind 1898 01:18:15,689 --> 01:18:12,800 of mind that was had observant and could 1899 01:18:18,879 --> 01:18:15,699 make this kind of art the more never 1900 01:18:21,129 --> 01:18:18,889 replicated that and that song indicates 1901 01:18:22,629 --> 01:18:21,139 to me that he was not the author of that 1902 01:18:24,850 --> 01:18:22,639 particular thing though he signed it as 1903 01:18:28,990 --> 01:18:24,860 you said indeed he did on the back of it 1904 01:18:33,510 --> 01:18:29,000 we see two motifs choice questions nine 1905 01:18:36,459 --> 01:18:33,520 and ten and it is really quite strange 1906 01:18:38,229 --> 01:18:36,469 what what is there the questions one of 1907 01:18:42,879 --> 01:18:38,239 them you have to check whether the 1908 01:18:44,140 --> 01:18:42,889 answer is was a hippie and there's there 1909 01:18:46,629 --> 01:18:44,150 the first one is partly torn asunder 1910 01:18:49,689 --> 01:18:46,639 what and then or that it has Jewish and 1911 01:18:52,689 --> 01:18:49,699 somebody with multi colors has checked 1912 01:18:54,970 --> 01:18:52,699 and marked these answers with circles I 1913 01:18:57,129 --> 01:18:54,980 do not believe from what Anya but Lonnie 1914 01:18:59,110 --> 01:18:57,139 that this is anything that was pulled 1915 01:19:01,030 --> 01:18:59,120 out of the running of the Motors car but 1916 01:19:05,020 --> 01:19:01,040 it definitely impressed me as the kind 1917 01:19:07,810 --> 01:19:05,030 of thing that holder could have come up 1918 01:19:11,290 --> 01:19:07,820 with and keep in mind that his son 1919 01:19:12,939 --> 01:19:11,300 Richard holder Jr was here at the house 1920 01:19:15,220 --> 01:19:12,949 had lengthy talks with him and he 1921 01:19:16,959 --> 01:19:15,230 contacted me and told me ray 1922 01:19:21,040 --> 01:19:16,969 you know you were right there was a 1923 01:19:22,450 --> 01:19:21,050 cover-up now Richard was only he was 1924 01:19:24,040 --> 01:19:22,460 either six or nine years old I believe 1925 01:19:27,879 --> 01:19:24,050 at that time maybe even before but his 1926 01:19:29,470 --> 01:19:27,889 six or nine and he says he cannot 1927 01:19:31,450 --> 01:19:29,480 remember cannot find the drawings that 1928 01:19:33,100 --> 01:19:31,460 his dad made the real symbol but that 1929 01:19:37,180 --> 01:19:33,110 his dad told him it was definitely not 1930 01:19:39,490 --> 01:19:37,190 the Umbrella symbol I and he I have two 1931 01:19:42,520 --> 01:19:39,500 versions of it including a handwritten 1932 01:19:46,060 --> 01:19:42,530 and signed version testifying to that 1933 01:19:47,860 --> 01:19:46,070 permitter t Holder jr. I do not believe 1934 01:19:48,840 --> 01:19:47,870 that he made that up because his brother 1935 01:19:51,180 --> 01:19:48,850 also the 1936 01:19:54,420 --> 01:19:51,190 brother the other son of a richer holder 1937 01:19:55,380 --> 01:19:54,430 was here - okay hey ray so there it is 1938 01:19:57,300 --> 01:19:55,390 yeah 1939 01:19:59,220 --> 01:19:57,310 okay ray so we're gonna have I'm gonna 1940 01:20:03,210 --> 01:19:59,230 have to get back with Kevin but thanks 1941 01:20:05,010 --> 01:20:03,220 very much for you calling go ahead say 1942 01:20:06,440 --> 01:20:05,020 one thing I found I found another report 1943 01:20:09,450 --> 01:20:06,450 in the project Bluebook files were 1944 01:20:12,870 --> 01:20:09,460 Lonnie Zamora said and then I saw two 1945 01:20:14,580 --> 01:20:12,880 persons well this is that this is a 1946 01:20:16,230 --> 01:20:14,590 transcription of something someone said 1947 01:20:17,370 --> 01:20:16,240 it's no that's not to be mistaken for a 1948 01:20:19,920 --> 01:20:17,380 tape recording is it 1949 01:20:21,870 --> 01:20:19,930 well everything would be a transcription 1950 01:20:23,220 --> 01:20:21,880 of what they said no no it wouldn't 1951 01:20:25,350 --> 01:20:23,230 they're there they're just writing down 1952 01:20:26,250 --> 01:20:25,360 as they're talking to the man don't tell 1953 01:20:29,940 --> 01:20:26,260 me it's going to be a hundred percent 1954 01:20:33,000 --> 01:20:29,950 accurate because it wouldn't be it just 1955 01:20:37,950 --> 01:20:33,010 wouldn't happen that way so I we have to 1956 01:20:40,590 --> 01:20:37,960 go by I have recordings of Zamora and he 1957 01:20:42,960 --> 01:20:40,600 never used those terms in any view 1958 01:20:46,170 --> 01:20:42,970 interview I had with him so I leave it 1959 01:20:48,480 --> 01:20:46,180 at that and and let you go but I think 1960 01:20:53,580 --> 01:20:48,490 you're wrong so that's it thank you all 1961 01:20:56,640 --> 01:20:53,590 right ray you take care okay all right 1962 01:20:59,760 --> 01:20:56,650 Kevin so here we are back let me just 1963 01:21:00,600 --> 01:20:59,770 see also in the chat room if anyone has 1964 01:21:02,550 --> 01:21:00,610 any questions 1965 01:21:05,730 --> 01:21:02,560 well while you're looking at that let me 1966 01:21:08,850 --> 01:21:05,740 just say is I think the big argument 1967 01:21:12,630 --> 01:21:08,860 over the symbol really is kind of much 1968 01:21:14,250 --> 01:21:12,640 ado about nothing because it's the 1969 01:21:17,070 --> 01:21:14,260 symbol that they saw in the craft I 1970 01:21:19,710 --> 01:21:17,080 think that the documentation tells us 1971 01:21:21,060 --> 01:21:19,720 what the real symbol was and I don't 1972 01:21:23,460 --> 01:21:21,070 think ray and I are ever going home to 1973 01:21:24,390 --> 01:21:23,470 be on that point so I'll let it go with 1974 01:21:28,470 --> 01:21:24,400 I'll let it go at that 1975 01:21:31,830 --> 01:21:28,480 yeah yeah I had wondered at one time why 1976 01:21:33,840 --> 01:21:31,840 the symbol was you know actually more 1977 01:21:37,380 --> 01:21:33,850 seemed like more controversy than the 1978 01:21:38,940 --> 01:21:37,390 actual that the figures were you know 1979 01:21:41,310 --> 01:21:38,950 because I I thought that was a 1980 01:21:42,630 --> 01:21:41,320 controversial part of this story and you 1981 01:21:44,970 --> 01:21:42,640 know maybe it's kind of just morphed 1982 01:21:48,660 --> 01:21:44,980 into you know this whole thing about the 1983 01:21:51,570 --> 01:21:48,670 symbol but but it's it's it's an 1984 01:21:53,610 --> 01:21:51,580 extraordinary case and we can actually 1985 01:21:56,700 --> 01:21:53,620 move on and start talking about other 1986 01:22:00,180 --> 01:21:56,710 things but do you agree along with 1987 01:22:02,220 --> 01:22:00,190 myself that I think that I said earlier 1988 01:22:04,800 --> 01:22:02,230 that I do believe this is one of the 1989 01:22:06,990 --> 01:22:04,810 the best cases to youth is that one of 1990 01:22:09,780 --> 01:22:07,000 the inspirations if we had to have this 1991 01:22:11,010 --> 01:22:09,790 discussion a year ago I said no and I 1992 01:22:14,250 --> 01:22:11,020 would have said no because it's single 1993 01:22:16,950 --> 01:22:14,260 witness and as I did my investigation 1994 01:22:19,560 --> 01:22:16,960 and granted it's more than 50 years ago 1995 01:22:21,390 --> 01:22:19,570 half a century ago learning about all 1996 01:22:23,940 --> 01:22:21,400 the other witnesses who were kind of 1997 01:22:27,210 --> 01:22:23,950 ignored and kind of overlooked and kind 1998 01:22:28,650 --> 01:22:27,220 of pushed to the side it's become much 1999 01:22:30,840 --> 01:22:28,660 more than a single witness case and I 2000 01:22:32,220 --> 01:22:30,850 think it because it moves it up that 2001 01:22:34,650 --> 01:22:32,230 arena I think it's one of those cases 2002 01:22:36,930 --> 01:22:34,660 that you got to say this probably this 2003 01:22:38,970 --> 01:22:36,940 was either this was either alien 2004 01:22:42,060 --> 01:22:38,980 visitation or it was a hoax there's 2005 01:22:45,030 --> 01:22:42,070 really no in-between ground there right 2006 01:22:47,670 --> 01:22:45,040 and in the hoax as I just don't I don't 2007 01:22:49,130 --> 01:22:47,680 think so so I'm gonna ask people in the 2008 01:22:51,720 --> 01:22:49,140 chat room if you have any questions 2009 01:22:53,250 --> 01:22:51,730 about the Socorro case because we're 2010 01:22:55,830 --> 01:22:53,260 gonna move on to other things so if you 2011 01:22:59,880 --> 01:22:55,840 have any questions now is your time post 2012 01:23:01,830 --> 01:22:59,890 a question for Kevin so I'm I'm just 2013 01:23:05,190 --> 01:23:01,840 about out of questions for Socorro I 2014 01:23:08,760 --> 01:23:05,200 mean I think as time went on you know 2015 01:23:12,900 --> 01:23:08,770 Lonnie I think he was very distressed by 2016 01:23:15,270 --> 01:23:12,910 the whole situation and I think even I 2017 01:23:17,970 --> 01:23:15,280 don't know what the ridicule factor was 2018 01:23:20,760 --> 01:23:17,980 for Lonnie did you follow that all the 2019 01:23:23,400 --> 01:23:20,770 way through all I have all I can see is 2020 01:23:25,080 --> 01:23:23,410 the discussions that I've had my friend 2021 01:23:27,780 --> 01:23:25,090 my friend Bob Cornett being down there 2022 01:23:30,510 --> 01:23:27,790 it was seem that he was very distressed 2023 01:23:33,570 --> 01:23:30,520 and I got the impression by looking at 2024 01:23:36,420 --> 01:23:33,580 the documentation I got to see talking 2025 01:23:37,050 --> 01:23:36,430 to Paul Paul Hardin who talked to Lonnie 2026 01:23:39,210 --> 01:23:37,060 Zamora 2027 01:23:41,580 --> 01:23:39,220 he was very distressed by the way he was 2028 01:23:43,440 --> 01:23:41,590 treated about all of this and they did 2029 01:23:45,150 --> 01:23:43,450 kind of percolated through the entire 2030 01:23:46,590 --> 01:23:45,160 Police Department down there that they 2031 01:23:49,410 --> 01:23:46,600 saw how Lonnie was treated they didn't 2032 01:23:52,020 --> 01:23:49,420 want to have any part of that aspect of 2033 01:23:54,420 --> 01:23:52,030 it as well so I mean it's kind of the 2034 01:23:57,870 --> 01:23:54,430 what is being said about the whole thing 2035 01:23:59,729 --> 01:23:57,880 in today's environment right and I think 2036 01:24:01,440 --> 01:23:59,739 the other thing you know we we get too 2037 01:24:03,440 --> 01:24:01,450 hung up on the trivia well did he say 2038 01:24:05,100 --> 01:24:03,450 people or did he not say people the 2039 01:24:07,620 --> 01:24:05,110 documentation of project Bluebook 2040 01:24:09,960 --> 01:24:07,630 suggests that he didn't say use the word 2041 01:24:12,150 --> 01:24:09,970 people you know ray was saying well I 2042 01:24:13,860 --> 01:24:12,160 said 10 to 12 years old he said it was 2043 01:24:15,950 --> 01:24:13,870 you know really more of a 10 year old 2044 01:24:18,779 --> 01:24:15,960 kid 2045 01:24:21,870 --> 01:24:18,789 interesting interesting dichotomy there 2046 01:24:24,120 --> 01:24:21,880 but but the important point is he saw 2047 01:24:27,779 --> 01:24:24,130 humanoid creatures at the bottom of the 2048 01:24:29,399 --> 01:24:27,789 Arroyo and they were not fully grown 2049 01:24:32,549 --> 01:24:29,409 human type creatures so we've got to 2050 01:24:37,319 --> 01:24:32,559 take a look at it in the context of that 2051 01:24:39,240 --> 01:24:37,329 is the precise age of comparing it to 2052 01:24:41,189 --> 01:24:39,250 humans is that an important fact or is 2053 01:24:43,350 --> 01:24:41,199 it the important fact that he saw these 2054 01:24:45,689 --> 01:24:43,360 humanoid creatures down at the bottom of 2055 01:24:47,669 --> 01:24:45,699 the Arroyo and when we look at all of 2056 01:24:49,680 --> 01:24:47,679 the totality of the information I think 2057 01:24:52,439 --> 01:24:49,690 you know we've got the documentation 2058 01:24:54,029 --> 01:24:52,449 from 1964 whether it happens to be the 2059 01:24:55,350 --> 01:24:54,039 official project Bluebook file whether 2060 01:24:56,569 --> 01:24:55,360 it's the stuff that the Lorenz uns 2061 01:24:58,799 --> 01:24:56,579 published whether it's the stuff that 2062 01:25:00,299 --> 01:24:58,809 NICAP published whether it was stuff 2063 01:25:02,129 --> 01:25:00,309 published in the newspapers and a lot of 2064 01:25:03,990 --> 01:25:02,139 stuff was published in the newspapers in 2065 01:25:05,790 --> 01:25:04,000 fact I've got a newspaper clipping from 2066 01:25:07,859 --> 01:25:05,800 April 29th I think it's a San Antonio 2067 01:25:10,589 --> 01:25:07,869 newspaper and it's an Associated Press 2068 01:25:12,779 --> 01:25:10,599 story and it has the inverted V with the 2069 01:25:15,299 --> 01:25:12,789 three lines through it in the newspaper 2070 01:25:17,520 --> 01:25:15,309 story well I still haven't that was out 2071 01:25:21,839 --> 01:25:17,530 - all right we have another call coming 2072 01:25:24,509 --> 01:25:21,849 in here hello caller you're on the line 2073 01:25:25,890 --> 01:25:24,519 can I have your first caller you're on 2074 01:25:29,459 --> 01:25:25,900 the line can I have your first name and 2075 01:25:30,479 --> 01:25:29,469 where are you calling from South 2076 01:25:33,029 --> 01:25:30,489 Carolina Oh 2077 01:25:36,330 --> 01:25:33,039 Orion you've called a few times before 2078 01:25:38,160 --> 01:25:36,340 how are you yeah so do you have a we're 2079 01:25:40,529 --> 01:25:38,170 looking for questions about Sakura we're 2080 01:25:42,569 --> 01:25:40,539 going to change the subject pretty soon 2081 01:25:48,330 --> 01:25:42,579 here do you have questions for our guest 2082 01:25:50,189 --> 01:25:48,340 Kevin I had one one quick statement to 2083 01:25:57,000 --> 01:25:50,199 make with regard to Sakura and then a 2084 01:25:59,640 --> 01:25:57,010 question about Sakura before earlier 2085 01:26:01,500 --> 01:25:59,650 today rewatched there's been a lot of 2086 01:26:04,250 --> 01:26:01,510 discussion about this is my comment 2087 01:26:07,020 --> 01:26:04,260 there's been a lot of discussion about 2088 01:26:08,759 --> 01:26:07,030 what line is the more said he actually 2089 01:26:12,419 --> 01:26:08,769 saw earlier today I rewatched the 2090 01:26:14,540 --> 01:26:12,429 unsolved mysteries episode that had does 2091 01:26:17,100 --> 01:26:14,550 a more a case on it and Zamora was 2092 01:26:20,459 --> 01:26:17,110 directly interviewed for this episode 2093 01:26:23,220 --> 01:26:20,469 and he used the word figures now his 2094 01:26:26,459 --> 01:26:23,230 character played by an actor used the 2095 01:26:28,500 --> 01:26:26,469 word people little people so I don't I 2096 01:26:37,260 --> 01:26:28,510 don't know what you can do with that 2097 01:26:40,380 --> 01:26:37,270 that's my comment my question is a does 2098 01:26:45,660 --> 01:26:40,390 Kevin feel Kevin earlier seem to such 2099 01:26:47,310 --> 01:26:45,670 state that there's no pasaran or his 2100 01:26:49,530 --> 01:26:47,320 extraterrestrial and I just want to ask 2101 01:26:51,540 --> 01:26:49,540 why does he not feel it couldn't be some 2102 01:26:54,720 --> 01:26:51,550 something experimental you know some 2103 01:26:56,850 --> 01:26:54,730 people have said yeah one far-fetched 2104 01:26:58,830 --> 01:26:56,860 thing it could be the limb or something 2105 01:26:59,970 --> 01:26:58,840 like that what winners hit what are his 2106 01:27:02,460 --> 01:26:59,980 thoughts on it being something 2107 01:27:04,229 --> 01:27:02,470 experiment well I thought I thought I 2108 01:27:09,330 --> 01:27:04,239 talked about this before but you know a 2109 01:27:11,460 --> 01:27:09,340 fine fine question quintanilla who was 2110 01:27:13,350 --> 01:27:11,470 the chief of Project Blue Book was in 2111 01:27:15,960 --> 01:27:13,360 the area within days of well maybe not 2112 01:27:17,729 --> 01:27:15,970 days but but in the area with orders 2113 01:27:20,070 --> 01:27:17,739 showing that he had a top-secret 2114 01:27:21,930 --> 01:27:20,080 clearance and that he was authorized to 2115 01:27:24,000 --> 01:27:21,940 see anything they were doing he looked 2116 01:27:26,850 --> 01:27:24,010 for a black project some kind of project 2117 01:27:28,200 --> 01:27:26,860 at Alamogordo Holloman Air Force Base 2118 01:27:29,610 --> 01:27:28,210 which was doing experimental things 2119 01:27:31,470 --> 01:27:29,620 inside and the White Sands Missile Range 2120 01:27:33,890 --> 01:27:31,480 he could find nothing to fit the 2121 01:27:37,610 --> 01:27:33,900 descriptions of what Lonnie Zamora said 2122 01:27:40,950 --> 01:27:37,620 we kind of talked about the New Mexico 2123 01:27:43,860 --> 01:27:40,960 skeptics not all that long ago a couple 2124 01:27:47,460 --> 01:27:43,870 years ago came up with a picture of part 2125 01:27:49,440 --> 01:27:47,470 of the lunar lander them look similar to 2126 01:27:51,180 --> 01:27:49,450 what Lonnie Zamora said but these things 2127 01:27:53,970 --> 01:27:51,190 weren't being tested in New Mexico at 2128 01:27:55,710 --> 01:27:53,980 the time meaning that the ones that were 2129 01:27:57,390 --> 01:27:55,720 they could fly by themselves weren't 2130 01:28:00,030 --> 01:27:57,400 being tested in New Mexico what they 2131 01:28:01,620 --> 01:28:00,040 were doing in New Mexico was testing it 2132 01:28:04,710 --> 01:28:01,630 using helicopters and that sort of thing 2133 01:28:06,270 --> 01:28:04,720 to see how it reacted to falling to the 2134 01:28:08,010 --> 01:28:06,280 ground and that sort of thing but 2135 01:28:10,140 --> 01:28:08,020 there's no documentation there's no 2136 01:28:12,690 --> 01:28:10,150 evidence to suggest that's what it what 2137 01:28:14,280 --> 01:28:12,700 it was so looking at the documentation 2138 01:28:16,140 --> 01:28:14,290 looking at the testing that was going on 2139 01:28:17,280 --> 01:28:16,150 there is absolutely nothing that fits 2140 01:28:20,070 --> 01:28:17,290 into the description of what Lonnie 2141 01:28:23,430 --> 01:28:20,080 Zamora said as an experimental aircraft 2142 01:28:27,300 --> 01:28:23,440 at the time all right excellent well 2143 01:28:32,370 --> 01:28:27,310 thank you Ryan okay it just seems a 2144 01:28:35,250 --> 01:28:32,380 little go ahead yes it just seems a 2145 01:28:37,260 --> 01:28:35,260 little unlikely to me that and I just 2146 01:28:39,330 --> 01:28:37,270 just pure speculation it's not like they 2147 01:28:41,850 --> 01:28:39,340 would tell me and I would know but it 2148 01:28:42,270 --> 01:28:41,860 just seems kind of unlikely to meet an 2149 01:28:46,229 --> 01:28:42,280 alien 2150 01:28:48,470 --> 01:28:46,239 spacecraft would be taking off shooting 2151 01:28:50,819 --> 01:28:48,480 flames on the bottom of it I mean I just 2152 01:28:52,049 --> 01:28:50,829 I would I would agree with you but 2153 01:28:56,459 --> 01:28:52,059 there's another there's another problem 2154 01:28:58,529 --> 01:28:56,469 when they tested the samples from right 2155 01:29:00,839 --> 01:28:58,539 under where that flame was they found no 2156 01:29:03,660 --> 01:29:00,849 evidence of any kind of an accelerant 2157 01:29:04,890 --> 01:29:03,670 any kind of a chemical analysis any kind 2158 01:29:07,979 --> 01:29:04,900 of petrochemicals there that would 2159 01:29:09,990 --> 01:29:07,989 suggest that so the flame what whatever 2160 01:29:12,330 --> 01:29:10,000 it was left no residue behind it and 2161 01:29:15,870 --> 01:29:12,340 that's kind of a anomaly when you look 2162 01:29:23,149 --> 01:29:15,880 at this whole thing yeah right well 2163 01:29:28,560 --> 01:29:26,220 all right all right thank you thanks for 2164 01:29:32,040 --> 01:29:28,570 taking my Co all right sure thing so we 2165 01:29:36,029 --> 01:29:32,050 have a question up on the chatroom Kevin 2166 01:29:38,700 --> 01:29:36,039 let me just get to it and you're still 2167 01:29:40,260 --> 01:29:38,710 there right Kevin I am here yeah I don't 2168 01:29:41,189 --> 01:29:40,270 know there you are in Skype okay very 2169 01:29:45,450 --> 01:29:41,199 good 2170 01:29:47,669 --> 01:29:45,460 I could call in if you'd like yeah so 2171 01:29:50,069 --> 01:29:47,679 someone wanted to know what is your your 2172 01:29:54,660 --> 01:29:50,079 best or your ultimate conclusion of 2173 01:29:57,720 --> 01:29:54,670 what's going on not just Socorro is this 2174 01:30:00,000 --> 01:29:57,730 a real physical phenomena and if so do 2175 01:30:01,890 --> 01:30:00,010 you think it's aliens that is the 2176 01:30:06,870 --> 01:30:01,900 question on the chat room in the chat 2177 01:30:09,330 --> 01:30:06,880 room I am said for ever in a week that I 2178 01:30:12,660 --> 01:30:09,340 believe there is alien visitation going 2179 01:30:14,100 --> 01:30:12,670 on but it's much more limited than we we 2180 01:30:16,529 --> 01:30:14,110 see in all the reports I don't think 2181 01:30:20,160 --> 01:30:16,539 it's nearly as widespread or as frequent 2182 01:30:22,890 --> 01:30:20,170 as as we think I think the most logical 2183 01:30:24,390 --> 01:30:22,900 answer for a number of cases Socorro 2184 01:30:29,609 --> 01:30:24,400 being one of them level and being 2185 01:30:32,760 --> 01:30:29,619 another is some kind of alien visitation 2186 01:30:34,529 --> 01:30:32,770 because the craft operate outside the 2187 01:30:39,569 --> 01:30:34,539 parameters of anything we would have had 2188 01:30:41,609 --> 01:30:39,579 in those time frames the some of the the 2189 01:30:42,779 --> 01:30:41,619 electromagnetic effects associated with 2190 01:30:44,310 --> 01:30:42,789 some of the sightings and here we go 2191 01:30:46,410 --> 01:30:44,320 back to level and installing the car 2192 01:30:49,169 --> 01:30:46,420 engines and that sort of thing is 2193 01:30:51,509 --> 01:30:49,179 suggestive of something beyond our 2194 01:30:53,729 --> 01:30:51,519 capability or outside our technology at 2195 01:30:55,770 --> 01:30:53,739 the time that was taking place so I 2196 01:30:57,420 --> 01:30:55,780 think that there is you know 2197 01:31:00,450 --> 01:30:57,430 there's some sort of alien visitation 2198 01:31:02,580 --> 01:31:00,460 there are other alternative explanations 2199 01:31:05,040 --> 01:31:02,590 that I don't think are as likely and one 2200 01:31:07,170 --> 01:31:05,050 of them would be time travel I think 2201 01:31:08,730 --> 01:31:07,180 that's a wonderfully fun theory to play 2202 01:31:11,160 --> 01:31:08,740 with that these are actually human 2203 01:31:14,460 --> 01:31:11,170 beings from our future coming back to 2204 01:31:18,330 --> 01:31:14,470 either see how things transpired in our 2205 01:31:21,060 --> 01:31:18,340 in our eras for their history books or 2206 01:31:22,500 --> 01:31:21,070 some other motivations for it there's a 2207 01:31:24,390 --> 01:31:22,510 possibility of some kind of 2208 01:31:25,740 --> 01:31:24,400 interdimensional thing going on that we 2209 01:31:28,140 --> 01:31:25,750 don't understand but all of those kind 2210 01:31:30,630 --> 01:31:28,150 of are in a physical physical realm is 2211 01:31:32,160 --> 01:31:30,640 there a psychological component to this 2212 01:31:33,720 --> 01:31:32,170 yeah I think there is in some of the 2213 01:31:36,030 --> 01:31:33,730 sightings there is a hika logical 2214 01:31:37,680 --> 01:31:36,040 component and one of the best examples I 2215 01:31:41,760 --> 01:31:37,690 have as a sighting that took place in 2216 01:31:44,640 --> 01:31:41,770 Mount Vernon Iowa 30 years ago where a 2217 01:31:46,590 --> 01:31:44,650 couple out at night saw what they 2218 01:31:50,310 --> 01:31:46,600 thought were lights landing in the woods 2219 01:31:53,010 --> 01:31:50,320 far beyond where they were and talking 2220 01:31:54,510 --> 01:31:53,020 to the mail in the days and weeks that 2221 01:31:57,000 --> 01:31:54,520 followed he just talked about these 2222 01:32:01,170 --> 01:31:57,010 lights seeming to come down the female 2223 01:32:03,210 --> 01:32:01,180 though talked as she talked about it the 2224 01:32:05,730 --> 01:32:03,220 the object grew until it became sort of 2225 01:32:07,830 --> 01:32:05,740 a disc-shaped object and eventually she 2226 01:32:10,650 --> 01:32:07,840 can see two figures inside this craft 2227 01:32:12,300 --> 01:32:10,660 this object I went out to the location 2228 01:32:13,800 --> 01:32:12,310 where they said they had seen the stuff 2229 01:32:15,660 --> 01:32:13,810 and I sat there at that about the same 2230 01:32:18,210 --> 01:32:15,670 time and the day that they had seen it 2231 01:32:20,010 --> 01:32:18,220 and I saw the same thing that they saw 2232 01:32:21,990 --> 01:32:20,020 the lights seemed to come down from the 2233 01:32:23,370 --> 01:32:22,000 sky and I realized exactly what they 2234 01:32:26,100 --> 01:32:23,380 were the landing lights of aircraft 2235 01:32:27,480 --> 01:32:26,110 going into the airport the plate the 2236 01:32:28,920 --> 01:32:27,490 police had checked out they said well 2237 01:32:30,360 --> 01:32:28,930 there were no landings at the time but 2238 01:32:32,670 --> 01:32:30,370 they they had checked with the airlines 2239 01:32:34,830 --> 01:32:32,680 and the airline said that we got we had 2240 01:32:36,840 --> 01:32:34,840 nothing going on but the airport was 2241 01:32:38,910 --> 01:32:36,850 still open and I think was private our 2242 01:32:40,770 --> 01:32:38,920 general aviation going on I saw the same 2243 01:32:43,200 --> 01:32:40,780 thing I mean exactly what they described 2244 01:32:46,590 --> 01:32:43,210 in the first night I saw exactly that 2245 01:32:49,410 --> 01:32:46,600 same thing and knew what it was so the 2246 01:32:52,100 --> 01:32:49,420 point simply is we had a sighting of 2247 01:32:54,540 --> 01:32:52,110 lights sort of seeming to descend and 2248 01:32:56,160 --> 01:32:54,550 eventually one of the witnesses came up 2249 01:32:59,670 --> 01:32:56,170 with a dome disc with a red light 2250 01:33:03,150 --> 01:32:59,680 underneath it and two figures seen in 2251 01:33:05,919 --> 01:33:03,160 the cockpit area of it so uh yeah well 2252 01:33:08,320 --> 01:33:05,929 it kind of expanded in in her memory 2253 01:33:11,229 --> 01:33:08,330 well you know I do agree with you too 2254 01:33:13,209 --> 01:33:11,239 that I think it's very possible that you 2255 01:33:15,689 --> 01:33:13,219 know I'm always because of the cringe 2256 01:33:19,330 --> 01:33:15,699 factor I'm always careful not to say 2257 01:33:21,520 --> 01:33:19,340 extraterrestrial too often but and it's 2258 01:33:24,040 --> 01:33:21,530 unfortunate that there is a cringe 2259 01:33:27,990 --> 01:33:24,050 factor because it is so possible we're 2260 01:33:30,010 --> 01:33:28,000 just an open you know planet floating at 2261 01:33:34,570 --> 01:33:30,020 40,000 miles an hour or whatever it is 2262 01:33:38,050 --> 01:33:34,580 and you know it could happen you know I 2263 01:33:40,630 --> 01:33:38,060 mean we're just available I there could 2264 01:33:43,090 --> 01:33:40,640 be visitation I think when we look at 2265 01:33:46,600 --> 01:33:43,100 the distances between or among the 2266 01:33:48,910 --> 01:33:46,610 planet among the stars you know that's 2267 01:33:53,380 --> 01:33:48,920 something that we really don't have the 2268 01:33:56,860 --> 01:33:53,390 technology to defeat and you know even 2269 01:34:00,040 --> 01:33:56,870 at the speed of light it takes you years 2270 01:34:03,399 --> 01:34:00,050 to get to the the next closest star 2271 01:34:04,930 --> 01:34:03,409 system or a half yeah but then you then 2272 01:34:07,209 --> 01:34:04,940 you think about well maybe there's a way 2273 01:34:10,899 --> 01:34:07,219 of defeating that that we don't 2274 01:34:13,149 --> 01:34:10,909 understand now that that allows them to 2275 01:34:15,100 --> 01:34:13,159 travel those distances much quicker than 2276 01:34:17,380 --> 01:34:15,110 we would imagine maybe the speed of 2277 01:34:19,479 --> 01:34:17,390 light isn't the limiting factor in in 2278 01:34:21,310 --> 01:34:19,489 our understanding of physics it is in 2279 01:34:23,410 --> 01:34:21,320 today's world but maybe it's not maybe 2280 01:34:26,590 --> 01:34:23,420 there's a way to to exceed the speed of 2281 01:34:28,660 --> 01:34:26,600 light we don't really know that sort of 2282 01:34:31,810 --> 01:34:28,670 thing yeah and we don't know how easy it 2283 01:34:35,649 --> 01:34:31,820 is to get from there to here it might be 2284 01:34:37,060 --> 01:34:35,659 a simple task and I don't see it being a 2285 01:34:39,100 --> 01:34:37,070 simple task but it could well be a 2286 01:34:41,169 --> 01:34:39,110 simple task which would explain that I 2287 01:34:43,060 --> 01:34:41,179 also think that if I'm an alien race and 2288 01:34:46,270 --> 01:34:43,070 I blunder into a planet that there's 2289 01:34:48,130 --> 01:34:46,280 like ours where our technology is 2290 01:34:49,840 --> 01:34:48,140 beginning to expand I'm going to take an 2291 01:34:52,209 --> 01:34:49,850 interest in that and even if I showed up 2292 01:34:54,160 --> 01:34:52,219 ten thousand years ago where we're just 2293 01:34:55,750 --> 01:34:54,170 beginning civilization where we're 2294 01:34:57,490 --> 01:34:55,760 building some cities we're doing that 2295 01:34:59,770 --> 01:34:57,500 sort of thing that would spark my 2296 01:35:02,110 --> 01:34:59,780 interest because I've discovered a about 2297 01:35:04,540 --> 01:35:02,120 planet with intelligent life on it life 2298 01:35:06,370 --> 01:35:04,550 that's able to create the rudiments of 2299 01:35:08,290 --> 01:35:06,380 civilization and I might be interested 2300 01:35:10,030 --> 01:35:08,300 in watching their progress as they 2301 01:35:12,310 --> 01:35:10,040 develop through the years it's kind of a 2302 01:35:15,490 --> 01:35:12,320 I guess an anthropological study if you 2303 01:35:16,899 --> 01:35:15,500 will but you know I don't know and I 2304 01:35:19,600 --> 01:35:16,909 look at these things like the limiting 2305 01:35:21,550 --> 01:35:19,610 factor of getting from from there 2306 01:35:22,870 --> 01:35:21,560 here and I just wonder what yeah is it 2307 01:35:25,990 --> 01:35:22,880 possible are we going to be able to 2308 01:35:27,910 --> 01:35:26,000 defeat that and and who knows what it's 2309 01:35:29,200 --> 01:35:27,920 gonna look like 10,000 years from now on 2310 01:35:32,169 --> 01:35:29,210 earth what we're going to be able to do 2311 01:35:34,180 --> 01:35:32,179 I mean I used to think when I was a kid 2312 01:35:36,430 --> 01:35:34,190 growing up that the the things that my 2313 01:35:40,660 --> 01:35:36,440 grandparents had seen develop you know 2314 01:35:42,580 --> 01:35:40,670 they were born into a society where the 2315 01:35:44,109 --> 01:35:42,590 speed of the railroad train was the 2316 01:35:47,919 --> 01:35:44,119 fastest you could travel and everybody 2317 01:35:50,439 --> 01:35:47,929 was on horseback and within their 2318 01:35:52,840 --> 01:35:50,449 lifetimes they see from travel by 2319 01:35:55,479 --> 01:35:52,850 horseback to people walking on the moon 2320 01:35:57,490 --> 01:35:55,489 and you know and I think I think today 2321 01:35:58,870 --> 01:35:57,500 you know we look back and you know Star 2322 01:36:00,490 --> 01:35:58,880 Trek had their communicators and 2323 01:36:02,590 --> 01:36:00,500 everything oh wow communicators that's 2324 01:36:04,899 --> 01:36:02,600 just great my cellphone is better than 2325 01:36:08,169 --> 01:36:04,909 the Star Trek communicator look we've 2326 01:36:10,930 --> 01:36:08,179 accomplished in you know the decades 2327 01:36:13,359 --> 01:36:10,940 here that the the the the Internet I 2328 01:36:15,430 --> 01:36:13,369 mean you and I are communicating over a 2329 01:36:16,930 --> 01:36:15,440 computer not a telephone telephones are 2330 01:36:17,979 --> 01:36:16,940 becoming a thing of the past because 2331 01:36:21,520 --> 01:36:17,989 we've got these better ways of 2332 01:36:22,810 --> 01:36:21,530 communicating so yeah you know who's who 2333 01:36:25,180 --> 01:36:22,820 knows what's gonna what it's gonna be 2334 01:36:26,530 --> 01:36:25,190 like in 100 200 300 years from now what 2335 01:36:28,240 --> 01:36:26,540 we're gonna be able to do and how we're 2336 01:36:33,010 --> 01:36:28,250 gonna be able to travel right we have 2337 01:36:36,129 --> 01:36:33,020 another call coming in and so let's see 2338 01:36:38,740 --> 01:36:36,139 if it's coming up takes just a second 2339 01:36:41,530 --> 01:36:38,750 caller you're on the air your first name 2340 01:36:44,229 --> 01:36:41,540 is are you going from yeah my name is 2341 01:36:46,930 --> 01:36:44,239 Tony I'm from North Carolina okay and 2342 01:36:50,169 --> 01:36:46,940 this this is not about there's a Moore 2343 01:36:53,189 --> 01:36:50,179 case but it's about a case that happened 2344 01:36:58,390 --> 01:36:53,199 at Fort Dix and McGuire Air Force Base 2345 01:37:00,820 --> 01:36:58,400 from 73 to approximately 78 I was a 2346 01:37:05,470 --> 01:37:00,830 military police dog hamrick Fort Bragg 2347 01:37:09,910 --> 01:37:05,480 North Carolina and about 76 we had a 2348 01:37:11,740 --> 01:37:09,920 first lieutenant commands and he we were 2349 01:37:13,959 --> 01:37:11,750 all sitting around drinking one night we 2350 01:37:16,180 --> 01:37:13,969 were talking and he was actually telling 2351 01:37:18,669 --> 01:37:16,190 us about the after that that happened at 2352 01:37:22,629 --> 01:37:18,679 Fort Dix and he said it was true I was 2353 01:37:25,390 --> 01:37:22,639 just wondering what a well Kevin thinks 2354 01:37:29,260 --> 01:37:25,400 about this when Stringfield did a lot of 2355 01:37:31,950 --> 01:37:29,270 work on that case and I think his 2356 01:37:36,850 --> 01:37:31,960 opinion was that the 2357 01:37:40,930 --> 01:37:36,860 evidence was very very weak for it but 2358 01:37:43,660 --> 01:37:40,940 Len Len in his status reports and that 2359 01:37:45,520 --> 01:37:43,670 is status reports a crash retrieval 2360 01:37:47,979 --> 01:37:45,530 status reports what's the called and he 2361 01:37:50,709 --> 01:37:47,989 talks about that in those status reports 2362 01:37:52,060 --> 01:37:50,719 you can find those online I think if 2363 01:37:54,129 --> 01:37:52,070 your interest didn't taking a look at 2364 01:37:55,959 --> 01:37:54,139 that I haven't done a whole lot of work 2365 01:37:58,990 --> 01:37:55,969 on that case and I was kind of put off 2366 01:38:03,640 --> 01:37:59,000 of it by my lens opinion I talked to 2367 01:38:05,950 --> 01:38:03,650 Lynn about mostly about the Roswell case 2368 01:38:08,020 --> 01:38:05,960 and a couple of other crash retrievals 2369 01:38:12,129 --> 01:38:08,030 but I got the impression from Len that 2370 01:38:14,770 --> 01:38:12,139 he wasn't real excited about it well I 2371 01:38:17,200 --> 01:38:14,780 know it's just something that's always 2372 01:38:18,820 --> 01:38:17,210 stuck in my mind because I know when I 2373 01:38:23,080 --> 01:38:18,830 was at Bragg we were called out one 2374 01:38:25,390 --> 01:38:23,090 night we were on a call in team and we 2375 01:38:27,939 --> 01:38:25,400 were called out one night to on the 2376 01:38:31,600 --> 01:38:27,949 bride there's a small nuclear facility 2377 01:38:35,620 --> 01:38:31,610 and we were called out one night because 2378 01:38:37,180 --> 01:38:35,630 of red lights over the facility and we 2379 01:38:39,459 --> 01:38:37,190 never could find out what it was but 2380 01:38:41,919 --> 01:38:39,469 yeah I mean I just always wondered in my 2381 01:38:43,510 --> 01:38:41,929 mind after this lieutenant was was 2382 01:38:45,070 --> 01:38:43,520 telling us about this and there's 2383 01:38:47,830 --> 01:38:45,080 something just always stuck in my mind 2384 01:38:49,750 --> 01:38:47,840 well let me ask you a question you 2385 01:38:53,680 --> 01:38:49,760 always believe what lieutenants told you 2386 01:38:56,129 --> 01:38:53,690 know we count them better bars they'll 2387 01:38:59,129 --> 01:38:56,139 be most Alber do to you if you were a 2388 01:39:01,570 --> 01:38:59,139 second lieutenant but then you know 2389 01:39:04,720 --> 01:39:01,580 thank God I was I didn't retire as a 2390 01:39:06,010 --> 01:39:04,730 lieutenant them hey Tony day well thank 2391 01:39:09,160 --> 01:39:06,020 you for you throw a bit wait wait a 2392 01:39:11,439 --> 01:39:09,170 minute Tony thank you for yours yeah 2393 01:39:13,720 --> 01:39:11,449 yeah Tony can you tell me did you are 2394 01:39:17,620 --> 01:39:13,730 you aware of this is something Robert 2395 01:39:19,390 --> 01:39:17,630 Hastings may have investigated was there 2396 01:39:22,020 --> 01:39:19,400 a report filled out on this about the 2397 01:39:24,669 --> 01:39:22,030 red lights over the nuclear facility yes 2398 01:39:27,370 --> 01:39:24,679 this I do not know because the duty 2399 01:39:29,610 --> 01:39:27,380 officer night that night we all we did 2400 01:39:34,030 --> 01:39:29,620 was go out and we set up a perimeter and 2401 01:39:36,610 --> 01:39:34,040 we investigated and by the time we got 2402 01:39:39,550 --> 01:39:36,620 there the lights had gone there was 2403 01:39:42,689 --> 01:39:39,560 nothing there so if there was ever even 2404 01:39:45,570 --> 01:39:42,699 a I'm sure there was some kind of 2405 01:39:47,610 --> 01:39:45,580 something made on it but 2406 01:39:49,620 --> 01:39:47,620 whatever it was I don't think you know 2407 01:39:51,720 --> 01:39:49,630 we would know what was in the report 2408 01:39:52,560 --> 01:39:51,730 very good all right hey thank you for 2409 01:39:55,110 --> 01:39:52,570 your call Tony 2410 01:39:58,850 --> 01:39:55,120 sure enough thank you guys all right 2411 01:40:01,380 --> 01:39:58,860 take care of that I didn't even think of 2412 01:40:01,650 --> 01:40:01,390 Bob Hayes Robert Hastings shouldn't say 2413 01:40:04,890 --> 01:40:01,660 Bob 2414 01:40:07,800 --> 01:40:04,900 Robert Hastings being interested in that 2415 01:40:09,390 --> 01:40:07,810 because of the nuclear weapon aspect of 2416 01:40:12,420 --> 01:40:09,400 it but that was it that was a good point 2417 01:40:15,120 --> 01:40:12,430 yeah hey so you know I want to move on 2418 01:40:17,490 --> 01:40:15,130 to what we want to talk to you about Tom 2419 01:40:19,320 --> 01:40:17,500 the Tom DeLonge opinion because I'm 2420 01:40:21,480 --> 01:40:19,330 getting a lot of email about that but 2421 01:40:24,030 --> 01:40:21,490 right before that I just wanted to ask 2422 01:40:26,040 --> 01:40:24,040 one question one more question that was 2423 01:40:28,680 --> 01:40:26,050 up in the chat room about the Socorro 2424 01:40:31,230 --> 01:40:28,690 case and that is someone wanted to know 2425 01:40:33,600 --> 01:40:31,240 why would you think that a craft would 2426 01:40:37,080 --> 01:40:33,610 land out in the middle of nowhere and 2427 01:40:39,630 --> 01:40:37,090 the scrubland as you called it not being 2428 01:40:42,870 --> 01:40:39,640 attuned to what alien thinking might be 2429 01:40:50,790 --> 01:40:42,880 I don't know I toss what you're gonna 2430 01:40:53,610 --> 01:40:50,800 say no no I said you'd say why not you 2431 01:40:57,440 --> 01:40:53,620 know I I don't know what would motivate 2432 01:40:59,790 --> 01:40:57,450 them and and that's sort of saying you 2433 01:41:01,620 --> 01:40:59,800 just you just don't know but I mean 2434 01:41:03,810 --> 01:41:01,630 that's a legitimate question that's a 2435 01:41:06,120 --> 01:41:03,820 certainly a legitimate question but but 2436 01:41:07,860 --> 01:41:06,130 does that negate the observations by 2437 01:41:09,540 --> 01:41:07,870 Lonnie Zamora does that negate the 2438 01:41:11,220 --> 01:41:09,550 observations by anybody else does that 2439 01:41:13,260 --> 01:41:11,230 negate the physical evidence left behind 2440 01:41:15,180 --> 01:41:13,270 you know why would they land out there 2441 01:41:18,080 --> 01:41:15,190 I don't know apparently they did right 2442 01:41:22,380 --> 01:41:18,090 right all right so let's talk about I 2443 01:41:24,780 --> 01:41:22,390 read your blog by the way Kevin has a 2444 01:41:27,300 --> 01:41:24,790 great blog there's a lot of things if 2445 01:41:29,880 --> 01:41:27,310 you have any questions about that you 2446 01:41:31,710 --> 01:41:29,890 want to research and you think wow this 2447 01:41:33,720 --> 01:41:31,720 sounds like a really good case Aztec 2448 01:41:35,760 --> 01:41:33,730 sounds like a really good case oh well 2449 01:41:40,290 --> 01:41:35,770 you'll find it on on Kevin site and 2450 01:41:41,940 --> 01:41:40,300 you'll find a lot of explanations and if 2451 01:41:43,920 --> 01:41:41,950 you're doing a show like me that's like 2452 01:41:47,520 --> 01:41:43,930 comes in very handy and again it's 2453 01:41:49,170 --> 01:41:47,530 blogspot how do you it's with just Kevin 2454 01:41:50,970 --> 01:41:49,180 Randle blogspot.com 2455 01:41:53,880 --> 01:41:50,980 it's called a different perspective and 2456 01:41:56,490 --> 01:41:53,890 I notice on some things that if you're 2457 01:41:59,010 --> 01:41:56,500 you're looking for a specific case my my 2458 01:42:02,640 --> 01:41:59,020 blog comes up in the first or second 2459 01:42:04,950 --> 01:42:02,650 a place on that well but it's more than 2460 01:42:06,600 --> 01:42:04,960 just UFOs because I've been getting an 2461 01:42:08,420 --> 01:42:06,610 awful lot of traffic now on the oak 2462 01:42:11,400 --> 01:42:08,430 island stuff because history has done 2463 01:42:12,690 --> 01:42:11,410 started the new season of the curse of 2464 01:42:16,080 --> 01:42:12,700 Oak Island and I know there's a lot of 2465 01:42:17,520 --> 01:42:16,090 people interested in that as well so so 2466 01:42:20,370 --> 01:42:17,530 they're they're looking at all that and 2467 01:42:23,400 --> 01:42:20,380 and the one of the easiest ways to get 2468 01:42:24,900 --> 01:42:23,410 to Amazon to look for my book is there's 2469 01:42:27,030 --> 01:42:24,910 an article up there and at the at the 2470 01:42:29,790 --> 01:42:27,040 end of the article is just a lick lift a 2471 01:42:31,650 --> 01:42:29,800 link you click on and it'll take you 2472 01:42:33,480 --> 01:42:31,660 directly to the sakura book and you can 2473 01:42:35,340 --> 01:42:33,490 take a look at the information there in 2474 01:42:36,810 --> 01:42:35,350 the book if you've got question I tried 2475 01:42:39,750 --> 01:42:36,820 to answer all the questions you'd have 2476 01:42:42,930 --> 01:42:39,760 on Sakura in the book and I used an 2477 01:42:46,680 --> 01:42:42,940 awful lot of information from Rey 2478 01:42:49,110 --> 01:42:46,690 Stanford and Ben moss and Tony and Joe 2479 01:42:52,260 --> 01:42:49,120 and Rob Mercer and Carmen Morano and 2480 01:42:54,240 --> 01:42:52,270 Paul Hardin and Rick Baca so it's not 2481 01:42:55,740 --> 01:42:54,250 just one of these things where I was 2482 01:42:57,390 --> 01:42:55,750 looking at other people's books and 2483 01:42:59,400 --> 01:42:57,400 copying their information I was out 2484 01:43:01,440 --> 01:42:59,410 there looking at the official Blue Book 2485 01:43:03,420 --> 01:43:01,450 file the unofficial Blue Book file and 2486 01:43:04,380 --> 01:43:03,430 talking to some of the people directly 2487 01:43:06,360 --> 01:43:04,390 involved in it 2488 01:43:09,750 --> 01:43:06,370 looking at the opera bullet through my 2489 01:43:11,220 --> 01:43:09,760 Kappa investigator the the MUFON Journal 2490 01:43:13,260 --> 01:43:11,230 had some stuff that was very very 2491 01:43:15,120 --> 01:43:13,270 important to do that so there's an awful 2492 01:43:18,240 --> 01:43:15,130 lot of reference material I brought 2493 01:43:21,770 --> 01:43:18,250 together into one place right okay so as 2494 01:43:25,440 --> 01:43:21,780 promised let's talk about Tom DeLonge 2495 01:43:27,380 --> 01:43:25,450 and what he's trying to do what's your 2496 01:43:30,120 --> 01:43:27,390 what's your thoughts overall in general 2497 01:43:33,420 --> 01:43:30,130 well I've got a goal been nice talking 2498 01:43:39,270 --> 01:43:33,430 to you I don't blame you for not wanting 2499 01:43:41,340 --> 01:43:39,280 to talk about it yeah it's it's I just 2500 01:43:43,920 --> 01:43:41,350 don't see anything of substance there I 2501 01:43:45,600 --> 01:43:43,930 mean I look at the things that he has 2502 01:43:48,000 --> 01:43:45,610 said I look at the interviews that he 2503 01:43:50,730 --> 01:43:48,010 conducted and I put stuff on the blog 2504 01:43:54,090 --> 01:43:50,740 that gives you the the point it looks 2505 01:43:56,490 --> 01:43:54,100 like it's more entertainment than it is 2506 01:43:58,800 --> 01:43:56,500 serious research I mean looking at what 2507 01:44:00,930 --> 01:43:58,810 he has said and the things he he buys 2508 01:44:03,960 --> 01:44:00,940 into practically everything if you if 2509 01:44:05,850 --> 01:44:03,970 you listen to what he has said in 2510 01:44:06,870 --> 01:44:05,860 interviews that he's conducted there was 2511 01:44:09,600 --> 01:44:06,880 one with Joe Rogan 2512 01:44:11,370 --> 01:44:09,610 that he did that I listen to oh my god I 2513 01:44:14,450 --> 01:44:11,380 listened to the whole thing 2514 01:44:20,160 --> 01:44:14,460 talking about what they're doing and 2515 01:44:21,720 --> 01:44:20,170 there was this this Sumerian symbol that 2516 01:44:22,860 --> 01:44:21,730 they put up there and it had the Sun 2517 01:44:24,150 --> 01:44:22,870 there and he said this is the Sun 2518 01:44:26,670 --> 01:44:24,160 because you can see the Rays around it 2519 01:44:29,160 --> 01:44:26,680 and here are all the planets around the 2520 01:44:31,620 --> 01:44:29,170 Sun and one of them is labeled Pluto and 2521 01:44:33,180 --> 01:44:31,630 one of them is labeled Makemake which is 2522 01:44:36,270 --> 01:44:33,190 by the way a dwarf planet that's out 2523 01:44:38,100 --> 01:44:36,280 beyond the pluto in the Kuiper belt and 2524 01:44:39,750 --> 01:44:38,110 other things like that he said prove 2525 01:44:42,120 --> 01:44:39,760 that the Sumerians knew about this stuff 2526 01:44:43,710 --> 01:44:42,130 I said my god you put the labels on it 2527 01:44:46,040 --> 01:44:43,720 it wasn't they labeled it they wouldn't 2528 01:44:49,950 --> 01:44:46,050 have been labeling with labeling it with 2529 01:44:52,340 --> 01:44:49,960 English oh well our well Makemake is not 2530 01:44:55,320 --> 01:44:52,350 exactly English I think that's Hawaiian 2531 01:44:58,050 --> 01:44:55,330 but good point what but but but the 2532 01:45:00,210 --> 01:44:58,060 point simply is there is nothing to 2533 01:45:02,100 --> 01:45:00,220 suggest in that symbol that it's the Sun 2534 01:45:04,980 --> 01:45:02,110 surrounded by our solar system as that 2535 01:45:07,290 --> 01:45:04,990 exists today you know and they're 2536 01:45:10,770 --> 01:45:07,300 drawing this conclusion based on I don't 2537 01:45:13,320 --> 01:45:10,780 know what but you know they would said 2538 01:45:15,330 --> 01:45:13,330 it was the idea well they had this thing 2539 01:45:16,680 --> 01:45:15,340 they had Pluto on this thing and Pluto 2540 01:45:18,420 --> 01:45:16,690 wasn't discovered and they said until 2541 01:45:20,880 --> 01:45:18,430 the 1950s but somebody googled would 2542 01:45:22,440 --> 01:45:20,890 form and they realized it was 1930s but 2543 01:45:25,710 --> 01:45:22,450 I mean we looked at all of that stuff 2544 01:45:28,440 --> 01:45:25,720 and they're just buying everything you 2545 01:45:31,320 --> 01:45:28,450 know no matter how outlandish the the 2546 01:45:34,980 --> 01:45:31,330 idea is how outlandish the theory is 2547 01:45:37,080 --> 01:45:34,990 he's bought into it and with absolutely 2548 01:45:41,250 --> 01:45:37,090 no critical thought about this does this 2549 01:45:43,830 --> 01:45:41,260 make any sense to you that's that's one 2550 01:45:45,270 --> 01:45:43,840 of the things that that bothers me now a 2551 01:45:47,130 --> 01:45:45,280 lot of people are saying oh he's just 2552 01:45:50,340 --> 01:45:47,140 scamming people for money and and all 2553 01:45:50,760 --> 01:45:50,350 that first of all anybody can check this 2554 01:45:53,070 --> 01:45:50,770 out 2555 01:45:56,490 --> 01:45:53,080 you know he's worth it's 62 million 2556 01:45:58,440 --> 01:45:56,500 dollars net how do you know that well 2557 01:46:00,840 --> 01:45:58,450 you know that just by searching online 2558 01:46:02,610 --> 01:46:00,850 you know I mean oh let me about the 2559 01:46:04,290 --> 01:46:02,620 search online if you look Kevin Randle 2560 01:46:06,120 --> 01:46:04,300 up the search online you will find out 2561 01:46:08,220 --> 01:46:06,130 I'm worth anywhere between two hundred 2562 01:46:12,600 --> 01:46:08,230 and fifty thousand dollars and 134 2563 01:46:13,830 --> 01:46:12,610 million okay and I wished I had 134 2564 01:46:16,170 --> 01:46:13,840 million because you and I wouldn't be 2565 01:46:18,330 --> 01:46:16,180 talking or I might be I might have flown 2566 01:46:21,120 --> 01:46:18,340 okay so we could sit down together well 2567 01:46:23,730 --> 01:46:21,130 he he's probably made a lot of good 2568 01:46:25,020 --> 01:46:23,740 money from and I would agree he's 2569 01:46:26,400 --> 01:46:25,030 probably worth millions I 2570 01:46:28,560 --> 01:46:26,410 just saying those sites aren't very 2571 01:46:30,300 --> 01:46:28,570 reliable based and I'm not even sure why 2572 01:46:33,600 --> 01:46:30,310 I'm on the sites as a celebrity for 2573 01:46:35,070 --> 01:46:33,610 crying out loud but but I've got why 2574 01:46:36,960 --> 01:46:35,080 I've got one sitting right here that I 2575 01:46:38,520 --> 01:46:36,970 downloaded it's got me worth eight 2576 01:46:40,260 --> 01:46:38,530 million dollars and I look back two 2577 01:46:42,270 --> 01:46:40,270 weeks later and I'm worth 14 million on 2578 01:46:44,790 --> 01:46:42,280 it what you're doing well you know I'm 2579 01:46:47,520 --> 01:46:44,800 doing absolutely fine I wish I had that 2580 01:46:49,230 --> 01:46:47,530 money I would just be dancing in the 2581 01:46:52,940 --> 01:46:49,240 street I'll tell you I wouldn't be 2582 01:46:59,360 --> 01:46:55,620 please buy my book let me earn the extra 2583 01:47:03,270 --> 01:46:59,370 twenty five cents I get for the royalty 2584 01:47:06,540 --> 01:47:03,280 so alright so anyway I think you know 2585 01:47:08,220 --> 01:47:06,550 this is this is a problem he's buying 2586 01:47:10,740 --> 01:47:08,230 into a lot and I'm kind of surprised 2587 01:47:14,400 --> 01:47:10,750 that he's buying into the things he's 2588 01:47:16,650 --> 01:47:14,410 buying into but overall I think his 2589 01:47:18,690 --> 01:47:16,660 intention started out as good and what 2590 01:47:21,180 --> 01:47:18,700 he what are your thoughts of that I 2591 01:47:24,120 --> 01:47:21,190 think he's probably very sincere but he 2592 01:47:25,500 --> 01:47:24,130 has the stuff written so he gets a 2593 01:47:28,200 --> 01:47:25,510 hundred thousand dollars a year plus 2594 01:47:32,130 --> 01:47:28,210 expenses for his UFO research and I'd 2595 01:47:34,470 --> 01:47:32,140 take that too by the way but I'm not 2596 01:47:37,950 --> 01:47:34,480 sure it's necessarily designed to make 2597 01:47:41,160 --> 01:47:37,960 him money because he probably has as 2598 01:47:42,930 --> 01:47:41,170 much money as he really needs although I 2599 01:47:47,190 --> 01:47:42,940 think we're all trying to accumulate a 2600 01:47:49,380 --> 01:47:47,200 little bit more than we need but he he 2601 01:47:52,380 --> 01:47:49,390 doesn't seem to have a good solid grasp 2602 01:47:54,150 --> 01:47:52,390 on the UFO field and I think that's the 2603 01:47:57,180 --> 01:47:54,160 problem I think when when we you know 2604 01:47:59,490 --> 01:47:57,190 you and I talk or I talked of let's say 2605 01:48:00,840 --> 01:47:59,500 Robert Hastings or Jerry Clark or Mark 2606 01:48:03,690 --> 01:48:00,850 rodiger or some of the people have been 2607 01:48:07,800 --> 01:48:03,700 around the field forever Robert Powell 2608 01:48:10,080 --> 01:48:07,810 and those people you get a different 2609 01:48:13,190 --> 01:48:10,090 take on it because they've been around 2610 01:48:15,870 --> 01:48:13,200 forever and they try to be a little bit 2611 01:48:18,900 --> 01:48:15,880 more careful in what they what they say 2612 01:48:20,310 --> 01:48:18,910 and where the research takes them and I 2613 01:48:21,570 --> 01:48:20,320 mean if you sit down and you read a 2614 01:48:23,250 --> 01:48:21,580 bunch of books and you read the wrong 2615 01:48:24,960 --> 01:48:23,260 bunch of books you're going to come up 2616 01:48:27,450 --> 01:48:24,970 with this you're going to go off into 2617 01:48:30,540 --> 01:48:27,460 tangents and the UFO field is filled 2618 01:48:33,570 --> 01:48:30,550 with so many subsets you have abductions 2619 01:48:37,350 --> 01:48:33,580 in crop circles and cattle mutilations 2620 01:48:38,700 --> 01:48:37,360 and the end mj-12 and the Roswell case 2621 01:48:41,370 --> 01:48:38,710 you got all these subsets go 2622 01:48:46,290 --> 01:48:41,380 went on and you can certainly get sucked 2623 01:48:48,060 --> 01:48:46,300 into one of those subsets and and go off 2624 01:48:50,280 --> 01:48:48,070 on a tangent and you have to be very 2625 01:48:52,560 --> 01:48:50,290 careful in what you accept you have to 2626 01:48:54,930 --> 01:48:52,570 apply some critical thinking skills to 2627 01:48:56,580 --> 01:48:54,940 this and and and the last person that 2628 01:48:58,979 --> 01:48:56,590 called in actually was doing that why 2629 01:49:02,670 --> 01:48:58,989 would they land out in the New Mexico 2630 01:49:05,280 --> 01:49:02,680 desert like that I don't know but the 2631 01:49:07,110 --> 01:49:05,290 evidence suggests they did but that that 2632 01:49:09,630 --> 01:49:07,120 that's kind of question you have to ask 2633 01:49:11,160 --> 01:49:09,640 you know does that question outweigh 2634 01:49:13,830 --> 01:49:11,170 what the evident where the evidence 2635 01:49:16,040 --> 01:49:13,840 seems to take us no I never I didn't get 2636 01:49:19,709 --> 01:49:16,050 a chance to listen to the Joe Rogan 2637 01:49:21,630 --> 01:49:19,719 interview but I had oh probably 25 or 30 2638 01:49:24,479 --> 01:49:21,640 people send me you know the link and I 2639 01:49:27,560 --> 01:49:24,489 probably will but do you think some of 2640 01:49:30,600 --> 01:49:27,570 the banter you hear out there is is 2641 01:49:33,510 --> 01:49:30,610 possibly some jealousy or do you think 2642 01:49:35,640 --> 01:49:33,520 hey you know he hasn't cut his teeth you 2643 01:49:36,900 --> 01:49:35,650 know what is he doing why is he getting 2644 01:49:38,670 --> 01:49:36,910 somewhere and I'm not do you think 2645 01:49:42,930 --> 01:49:38,680 there's that type of jealousy going on - 2646 01:49:44,280 --> 01:49:42,940 absolutely and I've seen it myself you 2647 01:49:46,290 --> 01:49:44,290 know when we were doing the Roswell 2648 01:49:50,250 --> 01:49:46,300 investigation and I say we dodged it and 2649 01:49:53,130 --> 01:49:50,260 I I remember Walt Anders coming up to me 2650 01:49:54,479 --> 01:49:53,140 at a MUFON symposium and wanting to know 2651 01:49:58,140 --> 01:49:54,489 we were where we were getting our 2652 01:49:59,570 --> 01:49:58,150 funding because I think the idea was we 2653 01:50:01,740 --> 01:49:59,580 were getting this money and he wasn't 2654 01:50:02,790 --> 01:50:01,750 and I've seen the same I've seen the 2655 01:50:06,540 --> 01:50:02,800 same thing at science fiction 2656 01:50:08,790 --> 01:50:06,550 conventions among the writers where if 2657 01:50:10,260 --> 01:50:08,800 you've published a book it they see it 2658 01:50:12,390 --> 01:50:10,270 almost as you've taken money out of 2659 01:50:14,540 --> 01:50:12,400 their pocket there's no way in hell they 2660 01:50:16,350 --> 01:50:14,550 could write every science fiction book 2661 01:50:18,479 --> 01:50:16,360 why it's in the same thing in the 2662 01:50:19,770 --> 01:50:18,489 lecture circuits you know people people 2663 01:50:21,300 --> 01:50:19,780 angry because you've got a lecture 2664 01:50:23,580 --> 01:50:21,310 somewhere why didn't they book me 2665 01:50:26,850 --> 01:50:23,590 instead and the idea is you can't 2666 01:50:28,890 --> 01:50:26,860 possibly do every lecture so if they 2667 01:50:30,590 --> 01:50:28,900 book me it isn't that they rejected you 2668 01:50:32,970 --> 01:50:30,600 or they didn't didn't want to do you 2669 01:50:35,190 --> 01:50:32,980 they wanted to hear what I had to say 2670 01:50:36,990 --> 01:50:35,200 and maybe you'll be invited next week 2671 01:50:39,330 --> 01:50:37,000 but you couldn't possibly do all the 2672 01:50:41,729 --> 01:50:39,340 lectures there's only so much time in 2673 01:50:43,650 --> 01:50:41,739 the year to do that sort of thing but 2674 01:50:46,709 --> 01:50:43,660 there is some of that and I think that 2675 01:50:49,290 --> 01:50:46,719 you know that may be part of what's 2676 01:50:50,380 --> 01:50:49,300 driving this I looked at what he had to 2677 01:50:53,620 --> 01:50:50,390 say 2678 01:50:56,500 --> 01:50:53,630 and was appalled by the lack of 2679 01:50:59,110 --> 01:50:56,510 understanding and I think the one thing 2680 01:51:02,080 --> 01:50:59,120 I brought up was the sumerian symbol i 2681 01:51:04,030 --> 01:51:02,090 well they they would see it proves there 2682 01:51:06,400 --> 01:51:04,040 was space there was ancient astronauts 2683 01:51:08,290 --> 01:51:06,410 because they knew about Pluto there's 2684 01:51:10,780 --> 01:51:08,300 nothing on that to suggest they knew 2685 01:51:12,190 --> 01:51:10,790 about Pluto it's just it looks like a 2686 01:51:15,130 --> 01:51:12,200 representation of the Sun and there's 2687 01:51:16,690 --> 01:51:15,140 all these circular areas around it but 2688 01:51:18,700 --> 01:51:16,700 there's no indication that that's the 2689 01:51:21,160 --> 01:51:18,710 solar system and they certainly don't 2690 01:51:22,750 --> 01:51:21,170 have any rings around Saturn yeah which 2691 01:51:25,060 --> 01:51:22,760 I think that that would be a wonderful 2692 01:51:26,680 --> 01:51:25,070 you know well here's one of them has 2693 01:51:28,330 --> 01:51:26,690 rings around it that's got to be satyr 2694 01:51:31,030 --> 01:51:28,340 and that kind of thing but but nobody 2695 01:51:35,350 --> 01:51:31,040 knew about that until Galileo saw the 2696 01:51:38,230 --> 01:51:35,360 rings in after he invented his telescope 2697 01:51:40,120 --> 01:51:38,240 in the 17th century but he didn't even 2698 01:51:41,440 --> 01:51:40,130 know what the rings were he some of the 2699 01:51:43,120 --> 01:51:41,450 drawings I've seen looks like big ears 2700 01:51:47,170 --> 01:51:43,130 around the planet as opposed to rings 2701 01:51:49,990 --> 01:51:47,180 wasn't that the 15th century I thought 2702 01:51:51,160 --> 01:51:50,000 was 1600s 1610 which make a 17th century 2703 01:51:53,740 --> 01:51:51,170 oh okay 2704 01:51:56,290 --> 01:51:53,750 all right I don't want to correct you I 2705 01:51:59,080 --> 01:51:56,300 mean I'm correcting the German Randall 2706 01:52:00,870 --> 01:51:59,090 yes yes and by God lightning will strike 2707 01:52:07,840 --> 01:52:00,880 you soon 2708 01:52:09,790 --> 01:52:07,850 so Kevin interesting I think it's been 2709 01:52:12,550 --> 01:52:09,800 an interesting night we're getting ready 2710 01:52:15,160 --> 01:52:12,560 to basically wrap it up and you know 2711 01:52:16,810 --> 01:52:15,170 what about Chris Mellon now Chris has 2712 01:52:19,180 --> 01:52:16,820 been on my show he's only been on my 2713 01:52:21,160 --> 01:52:19,190 show and he's uh he's been on George 2714 01:52:22,780 --> 01:52:21,170 Knapp but I set him up on George Knapp 2715 01:52:24,370 --> 01:52:22,790 he's only been on two interviews but 2716 01:52:26,980 --> 01:52:24,380 what do you think about what he's adding 2717 01:52:30,580 --> 01:52:26,990 to the whole thing I think I think he's 2718 01:52:32,830 --> 01:52:30,590 going to be a wonderful source from the 2719 01:52:35,920 --> 01:52:32,840 little bit little interaction I have 2720 01:52:38,740 --> 01:52:35,930 with people who have interacted with him 2721 01:52:40,390 --> 01:52:38,750 I suppose I should say he seems to be a 2722 01:52:43,180 --> 01:52:40,400 very credible source and provides very 2723 01:52:45,330 --> 01:52:43,190 solid information and he's coming he's 2724 01:52:47,560 --> 01:52:45,340 coming out with things that are a 2725 01:52:49,270 --> 01:52:47,570 valuable Robert Powell I had Robert 2726 01:52:51,280 --> 01:52:49,280 Powell on my program not that long ago 2727 01:52:53,940 --> 01:52:51,290 and we talked a little bit about about 2728 01:52:56,980 --> 01:52:53,950 melon and the Nimitz case where the 2729 01:53:00,150 --> 01:52:56,990 fighters intercepted the tic-tac shaped 2730 01:53:03,280 --> 01:53:00,160 object right near the USS Nimitz and 2731 01:53:05,470 --> 01:53:03,290 Powell provided provided remove some 2732 01:53:07,750 --> 01:53:05,480 links to put on my blog so you could 2733 01:53:09,430 --> 01:53:07,760 link to the Navy reports and some of 2734 01:53:11,950 --> 01:53:09,440 those sorts of things so I don't see 2735 01:53:14,620 --> 01:53:11,960 very credible very credible individual 2736 01:53:17,050 --> 01:53:14,630 who has some interesting information you 2737 01:53:18,370 --> 01:53:17,060 know I just saw today quickly saw it 2738 01:53:22,210 --> 01:53:18,380 today because I've been very busy lately 2739 01:53:26,650 --> 01:53:22,220 but on meta bunk no are you familiar 2740 01:53:28,930 --> 01:53:26,660 with that site no ok meta bunk actually 2741 01:53:31,690 --> 01:53:28,940 goes into a lot of UFO cases and 2742 01:53:34,660 --> 01:53:31,700 actually deciphers what's actually going 2743 01:53:36,880 --> 01:53:34,670 on so he's got something going on about 2744 01:53:39,880 --> 01:53:36,890 the Nimitz case worth at least looking 2745 01:53:42,880 --> 01:53:39,890 at anyway I'm not saying he makes sense 2746 01:53:46,000 --> 01:53:42,890 on this particular case because it seems 2747 01:53:48,760 --> 01:53:46,010 like a really good case but but anyway 2748 01:53:51,550 --> 01:53:48,770 it's worth checking out anyway 2749 01:53:53,020 --> 01:53:51,560 Kevin what do you have coming up what 2750 01:53:55,180 --> 01:53:53,030 are you thinking are you gonna be 2751 01:53:56,950 --> 01:53:55,190 writing any more and I want to also talk 2752 01:53:59,470 --> 01:53:56,960 about your radio show before we go we 2753 01:54:00,610 --> 01:53:59,480 have three minutes well my radio show is 2754 01:54:01,930 --> 01:54:00,620 going to be ending at the end of the 2755 01:54:03,760 --> 01:54:01,940 month that's what I thought now I 2756 01:54:05,370 --> 01:54:03,770 listened to it and I thought I heard you 2757 01:54:09,460 --> 01:54:05,380 say something about that 2758 01:54:12,760 --> 01:54:09,470 yeah about I are you gonna have horn on 2759 01:54:18,040 --> 01:54:12,770 as your last guess no no horn will be on 2760 01:54:20,320 --> 01:54:18,050 horn will be on the the 15th I'm sorry 2761 01:54:22,060 --> 01:54:20,330 yeah he'll be on the 15th and we'll be 2762 01:54:24,550 --> 01:54:22,070 talking about milling billy meier and 2763 01:54:26,770 --> 01:54:24,560 some of that stuff I've got Eddie 2764 01:54:28,240 --> 01:54:26,780 Bullard set up for the 22nd le bullet 2765 01:54:32,250 --> 01:54:28,250 Eddie Bullard being a member of the 2766 01:54:34,960 --> 01:54:32,260 Koufos and a UFO researcher of long 2767 01:54:37,300 --> 01:54:34,970 long-standing note and the last show is 2768 01:54:39,430 --> 01:54:37,310 set up with Adam do who is responsible 2769 01:54:41,920 --> 01:54:39,440 responsible slides I do know who that is 2770 01:54:44,320 --> 01:54:41,930 Wow I'm gonna be chatting with him about 2771 01:54:46,480 --> 01:54:44,330 how all of that came about so well 2772 01:54:48,250 --> 01:54:46,490 that'll be interesting yeah Alejandro 2773 01:54:50,440 --> 01:54:48,260 seems to think that he was kind of an 2774 01:54:55,390 --> 01:54:50,450 innocent person brought in to this whole 2775 01:54:58,240 --> 01:54:55,400 thing you'll find out right yes we will 2776 01:54:59,950 --> 01:54:58,250 find out I think Tom Carey and Don 2777 01:55:01,990 --> 01:54:59,960 Schmidt we're being innocently brought 2778 01:55:03,460 --> 01:55:02,000 into it and they were they allowed 2779 01:55:04,750 --> 01:55:03,470 themselves to be duped they I don't 2780 01:55:06,580 --> 01:55:04,760 think they asked some pertinent 2781 01:55:08,290 --> 01:55:06,590 questions I think they wanted to believe 2782 01:55:10,450 --> 01:55:08,300 so badly that yeah 2783 01:55:11,980 --> 01:55:10,460 yeah they got they got them some yeah 2784 01:55:14,130 --> 01:55:11,990 they got themselves fooled and I can 2785 01:55:17,770 --> 01:55:14,140 kind of understand how that happened 2786 01:55:19,630 --> 01:55:17,780 but we'll be talking to Adam do and then 2787 01:55:27,459 --> 01:55:19,640 I think we'll be wrapping up the program 2788 01:55:29,830 --> 01:55:27,469 there because it for me it was just it 2789 01:55:32,320 --> 01:55:29,840 was fun to do but it came to the point 2790 01:55:34,330 --> 01:55:32,330 where I kind of I was kind of stressing 2791 01:55:36,580 --> 01:55:34,340 out over getting the guests and and the 2792 01:55:38,260 --> 01:55:36,590 interviews and and that sort of thing 2793 01:55:42,340 --> 01:55:38,270 you know I talked to people all the time 2794 01:55:46,479 --> 01:55:42,350 and and and the program generated the 2795 01:55:47,830 --> 01:55:46,489 score book so it's it's uh it helped it 2796 01:55:49,870 --> 01:55:47,840 helped out there I've got some other 2797 01:55:51,790 --> 01:55:49,880 other projects in mind a lot of the 2798 01:55:55,600 --> 01:55:51,800 stuff shows up on my blog rather than 2799 01:55:57,189 --> 01:55:55,610 anywhere else as we go off and if I've 2800 01:55:59,070 --> 01:55:57,199 got a book coming up or something coming 2801 01:56:01,810 --> 01:55:59,080 out I announce it on the blog there 2802 01:56:03,100 --> 01:56:01,820 about it so people get to it as they say 2803 01:56:04,930 --> 01:56:03,110 you know encounters in the deserts on 2804 01:56:07,830 --> 01:56:04,940 the blog now it's it's available on 2805 01:56:10,870 --> 01:56:07,840 Amazon and I really appreciate it if 2806 01:56:15,250 --> 01:56:10,880 people would read the book and put up a 2807 01:56:17,830 --> 01:56:15,260 put up a favorable review I think a bad 2808 01:56:19,959 --> 01:56:17,840 review I'm definitely gonna do that 2809 01:56:22,600 --> 01:56:19,969 myself I'll probably do Kendall just the 2810 01:56:25,169 --> 01:56:22,610 way my life is but but I've just been 2811 01:56:27,790 --> 01:56:25,179 super busy in my professional life 2812 01:56:29,320 --> 01:56:27,800 lately I wanted to read it before this 2813 01:56:30,280 --> 01:56:29,330 show and it just there was just no way 2814 01:56:32,080 --> 01:56:30,290 that was gonna happen 2815 01:56:34,209 --> 01:56:32,090 but I definitely will check it out 2816 01:56:36,820 --> 01:56:34,219 because this is as I mentioned the very 2817 01:56:39,580 --> 01:56:36,830 beginning the Socorro case I do believe 2818 01:56:42,550 --> 01:56:39,590 is one of the top you know I dare say at 2819 01:56:45,370 --> 01:56:42,560 the top five interesting cases I would I 2820 01:56:47,640 --> 01:56:45,380 wouldn't argue with you much on that as 2821 01:56:50,380 --> 01:56:47,650 long as we got level and in there 2822 01:56:54,280 --> 01:56:50,390 alright okay Kevin will you take care 2823 01:56:55,930 --> 01:56:54,290 and thanks so much it's been a treat all 2824 01:56:59,890 --> 01:56:55,940 right excellent and I'll talk to you 2825 01:57:01,959 --> 01:56:59,900 soon okay goodnight goodnight alright 2826 01:57:05,140 --> 01:57:01,969 everyone so thanks so much for listening 2827 01:57:08,760 --> 01:57:05,150 and we'll be back next week our guest 2828 01:57:10,720 --> 01:57:08,770 has not been confirmed for next week so 2829 01:57:13,510 --> 01:57:10,730 we'll see what happens 2830 01:57:16,330 --> 01:57:13,520 and I will announce that anyone that 2831 01:57:18,930 --> 01:57:16,340 wants to know who's coming up all you 2832 01:57:21,669 --> 01:57:18,940 have to do is go on podcast UFO comm on 2833 01:57:24,729 --> 01:57:21,679 Sundays I always post it on Sundays who 2834 01:57:27,129 --> 01:57:24,739 the guest is also on the right hand side 2835 01:57:29,560 --> 01:57:27,139 bar there is a mailing list 2836 01:57:31,810 --> 01:57:29,570 anyone can join and you will get just 2837 01:57:34,929 --> 01:57:31,820 one newsletter a week and it basically 2838 01:57:37,899 --> 01:57:34,939 tells what's coming up on my shows now 2839 01:57:39,850 --> 01:57:37,909 the everything else show is temporarily 2840 01:57:42,339 --> 01:57:39,860 on pause right now I have some good 2841 01:57:45,159 --> 01:57:42,349 guests lined up but I may be going on a 2842 01:57:48,279 --> 01:57:45,169 internet radio station instead of 2843 01:57:50,500 --> 01:57:48,289 YouTube in particular on the Monday 2844 01:57:53,020 --> 01:57:50,510 night shows and if that happens it's 2845 01:57:54,850 --> 01:57:53,030 gonna switch to Tuesday night I do think 2846 01:57:57,669 --> 01:57:54,860 there's a chat room available though and 2847 01:58:00,299 --> 01:57:57,679 I will announce all that as that 2848 01:58:03,699 --> 01:58:00,309 progresses but thanks so much everyone 2849 01:58:06,520 --> 01:58:03,709 it's always always fun for me to do 2850 01:58:11,080 --> 01:58:06,530 these shows and I enjoyed Kevin tonight 2851 01:58:12,279 --> 01:58:11,090 and I also enjoyed the calls and thanks 2852 01:58:14,409 --> 01:58:12,289 so much for listening and if you're 2853 01:58:16,299 --> 01:58:14,419 listening because you're supporting the 2854 01:58:19,569 --> 01:58:16,309 show I really appreciate it 2855 01:58:26,380 --> 01:58:19,579 always alright everyone so remember to